Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:09 am

knaughty wrote:
Harmacy wrote:Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication in your spec?

No

Technically mine counts.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:14 am

Snake-Aes wrote:
knaughty wrote:
Harmacy wrote:Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication in your spec?

No

Technically mine counts.

I think your last sentence is inconsistent and makes it a null argument. ;)

Though I could perhaps see it being valid for an aoe situation where you have a warrior applying Demo Shout to a large group already, since Vindication is single-target.

But I'm not a fan of speccing for one specific (and rare) situation which we already handle perfectly well while specced into Vindication anyway.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:37 am

:p I'm just saying that mine, if it was actually achievable, is a valid reason.

It just doesn't happen to be achievable.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Argali » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:21 am

NO I REFUSE TO SPEC JUDGEMENT OF THE JUST AND VINDICATION WHEN I CAN GET MORE E-PEEN DPS TALENTS QQMOAR!!!ONE!!
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Harmacy » Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:23 pm

Argali wrote:NO I REFUSE TO SPEC JUDGEMENT OF THE JUST AND VINDICATION WHEN I CAN GET MORE E-PEEN DPS TALENTS QQMOAR!!!ONE!!


Going "squish" = flaccid e-peen

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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Ryyu » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:08 am

The only real reason I can possibly think of is to massively annoy Fury and Arms warriors into spending 5 points in a crappy talent, Mind that is quite a good reason...
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Njall » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:10 am

Argali wrote:NO I REFUSE TO SPEC JUDGEMENT OF THE JUST AND VINDICATION WHEN I CAN GET MORE E-PEEN DPS TALENTS QQMOAR!!!ONE!!


I IGNORE YOUR REALITY AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Erendis » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:24 pm

Argali wrote:NO I REFUSE TO SPEC JUDGEMENT OF THE JUST AND VINDICATION WHEN I CAN GET MORE E-PEEN DPS TALENTS QQMOAR!!!ONE!!


BUT IF I PUT POINTS IN VINDICATION AND JUDGEMENTS OF TEH JUDGE I WONT BE ABLE TO GET RECKONING!

I ALSO WON'T BE ABLE TO CLICK REND.

On a serious note I got a reply from a pally that was missing both talents. The reason he skipped them? "Boss auto-attack don't kill tanks and is a non-factor in almost all encounters. They are the least usefull mitigation talents available. All the top tanks in top guilds agree."

If I could have reached through the interweb and slapped him I would have.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Meloree » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:41 pm

knaughty wrote:
Harmacy wrote:Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication in your spec?

No


Sure, there's lots of good reasons.

A) You're an add-tank at Anub-25 (Heroic) and you don't want to accidentally overwrite the demo-roar that's on the boss during your 5-10 seconds of dpsing, because it causes your feral druid fits.

2) You're doing content that's well beneath your gear level, and using a dps prot spec (2/51/18), because big numbers are fun.

d) You need Aura Mastery for a given fight (Twins Heroic is one where respeccing to this, at least in progression, can pay big dividends)

There's also lots of bad reasons. I think in most cases, people don't have it in their specs out of ignorance, but there ARE valid reasons for skipping it, in some "specialty" specs.

EDIT:
Erendis wrote:"Boss auto-attack don't kill tanks and is a non-factor in almost all encounters. They are the least usefull mitigation talents available. All the top tanks in top guilds agree."


Wild. As an interesting dichotomy, I can't think of a top paladin tank who DOESN'T take those talents in progression builds. It's obviously impossible that anyone would make an appeal to authority argument without checking the facts, so I'd be interested to see which top paladin tanks he was talking about.

Yes, the sarcasm was heavy-handed. Sue me.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Meyrinn » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:26 am

Erendis wrote:On a serious note I got a reply from a pally that was missing both talents. The reason he skipped them? "Boss auto-attack don't kill tanks and is a non-factor in almost all encounters. They are the least usefull mitigation talents available. All the top tanks in top guilds agree."

If I could have reached through the interweb and slapped him I would have.


Ignorance is blisss i guess. That Paladin doesn't realized that Vindication effects not just auto attacks, but also percentage weapon damage instants like Unbalancing Strike, and Impale.

Also for the previous post about not wanting to overwrite Demo Shout/Roar, this should not be an issue if they are being put up by a tank War/Druid. Their improved versions are 1 point higher than Vindication. Vindication can't overwrite theirs.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Harmacy » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:04 am

Meyrinn wrote:Ignorance is blisss i guess. That Paladin doesn't realized that Vindication effects not just auto attacks, but also percentage weapon damage instants like Unbalancing Strike, and Impale.

Also for the previous post about not wanting to overwrite Demo Shout/Roar, this should not be an issue if they are being put up by a tank War/Druid. Their improved versions are 1 point higher than Vindication. Vindication can't overwrite theirs.


I didn't know either of those things... I guess this is why I read Maintankadin in the first place :D
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby knaughty » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:05 pm

SomeTardOnTheInterWebs wrote:On a serious note I got a reply from a pally that was missing both talents. The reason he skipped them? "Boss auto-attack don't kill tanks and is a non-factor in almost all encounters. They are the least usefull mitigation talents available. All the top tanks in top guilds agree."

AP reductions tend to be massively MORE effective on specials.

Number got posted somewhere, but is was suff like: "AP reduction debuff reduces white hits by 25% and specials by 50%". I'm sure someone will be able to dig up the details.

We got Vindication because of specials, not in-spite of them.

Go tank a Iron-Council-hard-mode Fusion Punch without an AP debuff and se how you like it.

Before Vindication I recall getting one-shot by various stuff if the people forgot to put demo up.
Meloree wrote:Sure, there's lots of good reasons.
Hmmmm... maybe. There's edge cases and silliness. I don't call them "good reasons".
Meloree wrote:A) You're an add-tank at Anub-25 (Heroic) and you don't want to accidentally overwrite the demo-roar that's on the boss during your 5-10 seconds of dpsing, because it causes your feral druid fits.
Close to a good reason. Admittedly, I tank Anub, have the bears go kitty and the warrior does the adds. Even so, doesn't seem like a good reason to me - Bear rotation isn't that horrific, they can stick it back up. If it was DPS putting it up, maybe - but why would DPS be putting it up?
Meloree wrote:2) You're doing content that's well beneath your gear level, and using a dps prot spec (2/51/18), because big numbers are fun.
Standard Knaughty Advice Proviso™ applies: I don't give advice on doing under-geared content, tanking as Ret, or soloing last year's bosses. I give "hard core" advice. This is not a good reason for doing progression content.
Meloree wrote:d) You need Aura Mastery for a given fight (Twins Heroic is one where respeccing to this, at least in progression, can pay big dividends)
Good reason if you have no Holy Paladin (what are you doing in a 25-man with no Holy Paladin? They're grossly OP at tank healing) Never had to take AM in a tank spec, thank god. We only need one AM for Twins, and we always have a Holy Paladin (Anub-hard would be pretty much impossible for us without our Holy paladin - he's keeping both tanks up). I didn't even have it in my Ret spec until I was asked to sub in as Ret for Yogg+0 (some people still want the nerd point). But yeah, that's a good reason.
Meloree wrote:There's also lots of bad reasons. I think in most cases, people don't have it in their specs out of ignorance, but there ARE valid reasons for skipping it, in some "specialty" specs.
The problem is that people see some weird specialty spec on someone and use it as an excuse for being stupid in normal content.

EG: I have bloody Guardian's Favour right now. This is stupid talent, useless for PVE. Oh... except for Anub-hard, where I get to BoP twice (first person and last person). For our strat you either need 4 paladins or one with 2/2 GF and then you can do it with 3 - and we only have three.

The other issue with saying "there are reasons to skip Vindication" - then listing a couple of hard-mode-current-content-edge-cases is that the people doing those fights don't need the advice! The people reading this thread and thinking "What? Vindication is good?" are the same people who need simple, to-the-point advice on shit. Not rocket-science hard-mode stuff using weird raid constructions.

Personally, I'm also sick of respeccing for a single boss. I got enough of that in freaking Sunwell, where I was doing it like 3-4 times a damn night. If my bear tank didn't like my Vindication removing his Demo, I'd tell him to drink a class of cement and harden-the-feck-up.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Meloree » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:53 pm

knaughty wrote:
Meloree wrote:Sure, there's lots of good reasons.
Hmmmm... maybe. There's edge cases and silliness. I don't call them "good reasons".


Well, yes. They're all edge cases and silliness. That should have been somewhat implied. I was being a bit snarky, because your oversized "no" struck me as a little snarky. It's still, in my opinion, a good idea to make sure to not just assume that someone is being willfully stupid without considering the edge cases and silliness they might be involved in. Sometimes people do things for reasons.

knaughty wrote:
Meloree wrote:A) You're an add-tank at Anub-25 (Heroic) and you don't want to accidentally overwrite the demo-roar that's on the boss during your 5-10 seconds of dpsing, because it causes your feral druid fits.
Close to a good reason. Admittedly, I tank Anub, have the bears go kitty and the warrior does the adds. Even so, doesn't seem like a good reason to me - Bear rotation isn't that horrific, they can stick it back up. If it was DPS putting it up, maybe - but why would DPS be putting it up?


We had a wipe, way back in the day, where we were early in P3, I procced Vindication on the boss, knocked off the partially improved demo-roar. It expired right before a freezing slash, bear couldn't get demo back up, melee overkilled by 200 or so. I'll be honest, I don't bother respeccing out of vindication on Anub'arak anymore. But, back in the day, yeah... it mattered. Corner case? It sure as hell was. We deal with a lot of corner cases as tanks, in this case the best thing I could do for my raid was to spec out of Vindication.

knaughty wrote:
Meloree wrote:d) You need Aura Mastery for a given fight (Twins Heroic is one where respeccing to this, at least in progression, can pay big dividends)
Good reason if you have no Holy Paladin


The last I checked, Aura Mastery was a cooldown that you could use more than once in a given time period. Our first couple of kills we popped both aura masteries (fire and shadow) for every Vortex, and the 5th ability regardless of what it was, just to take some of the pressure off. Again, I've since stopped bothering to respec into AM for this fight. But once upon a time, it helped.

knaughty wrote:The problem is that people see some weird specialty spec on someone and use it as an excuse for being stupid in normal content.

The other issue with saying "there are reasons to skip Vindication" - then listing a couple of hard-mode-current-content-edge-cases is that the people doing those fights don't need the advice! The people reading this thread and thinking "What? Vindication is good?" are the same people who need simple, to-the-point advice on shit. Not rocket-science hard-mode stuff using weird raid constructions.

Personally, I'm also sick of respeccing for a single boss. I got enough of that in freaking Sunwell, where I was doing it like 3-4 times a damn night. If my bear tank didn't like my Vindication removing his Demo, I'd tell him to drink a class of cement and harden-the-feck-up.


Well, there's a 32 page thread on Anub hardmode that suggests that people doing hard-mode-current-content-edge-cases do need advice from time to time, but I catch your point that this isn't the forum for it. I'm also not huge on respeccing for boss fights, but that's not going to stop me from doing it if I think I can wring some advantage from it. But aside from those quibbles, the real reason I made a point of replying here is that your comment about the bear tank is out of line. There's a really good reason that vindication caused him headaches, it's now explained very clearly up above. Which gets right back to my first point, there are good reasons for not taking Vindication, in certain "edge case and silliness" specs, and a little bit of thought about it goes a long way.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Argali » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:07 am

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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Chicken » Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:20 am

knaughty wrote:Number got posted somewhere, but is was suff like: "AP reduction debuff reduces white hits by 25% and specials by 50%". I'm sure someone will be able to dig up the details.

We got Vindication because of specials, not in-spite of them.

Go tank a Iron-Council-hard-mode Fusion Punch without an AP debuff and se how you like it.
Just a minor nit-pick, but there's two categories of special attacks mob use. If it's based on a percentage of weapon damage like Impale or Unbalancing Strike it's affected by AP debuffs, if it has a fixed damage range like Fusion Punch or Hateful Strike are not affected by AP debuffs.

Vindication remains very good on Steelbreaker though, especially if you're doing the encounter hard mode, since it will have a major effect on his auto-attacks, which are at least as dangerous as Fusion Punch itself is.
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