"Total" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby jere » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:32 am

Joanadark wrote:Meloree hit on basically what I was trying to express.
The problem with your equations is they are far to general and far too broad to reliably suggest the correct course of action in gearing for progression on a fight. The deal with long term overall damage, and fight-wide damage-proportions. In other words, they teach you to gear against Damage In.


They are as general or specific as you want them to be. You can use them for a particular hit streak for a particular fight if you want. If you are worried about melee+impale+melee for example, you can find the max values of all of those that you are worried about and use those in the EH equation he provided.

The only person making them too general is the person who uses them that way. It's theorycrafting, not basic training. People have to learn how to use equations properly, find someone who does to explain/do it for them, or just not worry about it.
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Meloree » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:53 am

From my last NB kill (which might be a bad one to take, I was semi-delirious from cold medication and fever):
Mel's Damage Taken in my MT/Threat gear with roughly 56k raidbuffed hp and 31k raidbuffed armor.

I'm pretty certain I forgot to pop either DP or armor pot for this, even. From this graph (WoL) you can see why I got away with such poor play, healing lags damage taken by under a second. Good thing the healers were on their games. Also, this burst didn't actually happen, it's simply the max potential.

Max Impale: 28965
Max melee: ~19000 (I'm too lazy to actually search the log file for it, but 2/3 of an impale, roughly)
Max Bleed tick: 10,624

Total potential tank-killing burst: 77,823
Total Bleed: 10,624

Mitigated Damage: 86.4%
Unmitigated Damage: 13.6%

Pretty easy to do, one really just needs to decide on what the risk to balance around is (and then ensure that that choice doesn't make something else riskier), pull the numbers, and go. Of course, from the log above, it's pretty easy to say "Neither EH nor avoidance reliably save you, cooldowns required."

Awyndel wrote:Also, it's not just about trinkets where the choice is armor vs stamina. It's also jewelry where the choice is armor vs stamina. In theory also plate although there the choice is usually armor vs avoidance.


Thus far we don't really have that option demonstrated much in jewelery. In the current content, you can wear the badge ring (ilvl 245) or the anub hardmode ring (ilvl 258) as a choice of stamina/strength/avoidance vs. armor. In the neck slot, you're choosing expertise or armor. In a purely physical fight, the clutch is slightly better than the Anub ring, but it doesn't take very much unmitigated damage to change that.

In ICC, it looks like there's a chance we'll be choosing stamina vs. armor on the cloak, but we'll have to wait for the loot tables to flesh out some before we can really see what options Blizzard is going to offer us in jewelery.
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Vagrant » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:36 am

It's funny how much of this wonderful work goes in the bin for the most critical content of the moment, which is Anub P3.
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Meloree » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:11 am

Vagrant wrote:It's funny how much of this wonderful work goes in the bin for the most critical content of the moment, which is Anub P3.


I don't think "in the bin" is the appropriate term. It's still a question of adapting to fight mechanics. This is a tool like any other. The MT still needs to survive a certain amount of burst, and this is far more useful than "old EH" for figuring out where that threshold is, and if/when said MT can then start getting more NR instead of more HP, which may or may not be optimal for survival, but which is certainly optimal gearing for the fight, because NR reduces DPS overhead, increasing net RDPS significantly.

EDIT: You may have been referring to add tanks. Granted that that's a case where this tool has minimal applicability. I still think "in the bin" is a misnomer.
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:36 am

Joanadark wrote:The problem with your equations is they are far to general and far too broad to reliably suggest the correct course of action in gearing for progression on a fight. The deal with long term overall damage, and fight-wide damage-proportions. In other words, they teach you to gear against Damage In.
In many situations, gearing to combat Damage In is not the same gearing methodology as gearing to combat short-window, tank-killing burst which would occur within the the space of time between one heal landing and the next.

I think Jere and Meloree already covered this sufficiently, but I just wanted to reinforce that nothing in the equations dictate a time scale. While I developed the theory with the whole fight in mind, the time scale can be whatever you want, making it just as useful at looking at a burst scenario as for an entire fight.

Meloree's example of how to use the equation to analyze a tank death scenario is exactly the type of use that shows the power of having the fully developed equation. Before, we would use the limited equation to figure out the EH options and then have to guess as to what was better. Now we can mathematically determine the best gearing decisions accurately.
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:38 am

Meloree wrote:
theckhd wrote:dR = (510+75+130)/50000*(1/0.33)*1300 = 56 resistance.


Aura/Totems/Mark don't stack. 510+130 should be the appropriate first term, I think.

Really? I didn't know that. I know that multiple resistance buffs don't stack (i.e. totem+aura) but I thought Mark counted separately since it was a somewhat unique stat+resist buff.

Separate question of less relevance to this thread: Do Mark and Fort stack?
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:41 am

Also, I've fixed a minor error in the conclusion where I added 15 and 25 to get 30. Thanks to the tipster who alerted me to this error in a private message.

For my next trick, I'll be proving that 1+1=3. :roll:
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby jere » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:49 am

Unless they have changed it, the MotW stamina does stack with Fort, while the resistance from MotW does not stack with totems/resistance auras. That is how it was in classic and TBC and early WotLK, but I honestly haven't tested it since we were discussing the new Resistance mechanics over at tankspot, so it could have stealth changed (they do that sometimes).

I assume that is due to the different scaling mechanisms between the two stats.
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Meloree » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:52 am

theckhd wrote:
Meloree wrote:Aura/Totems/Mark don't stack. 510+130 should be the appropriate first term, I think.

Really? I didn't know that. I know that multiple resistance buffs don't stack (i.e. totem+aura) but I thought Mark counted separately since it was a somewhat unique stat+resist buff.

Separate question of less relevance to this thread: Do Mark and Fort stack?


Mark's behaviour is a bit wierd. Actually, it isn't, it's totally consistent, it's resistances that are a bit weird. It's also very easy to verify, if you don't trust me, though.

Mark follows normal stat stacking rules for normal stats (armor, str/agi/int/stam/spirit). It's it's own buff category, and stacks with everything else. The Resistances portion, however, follow resistance stacking rules: 1 buff (aura/mark/totem/shadowprot)+1 consumable (flask)+anything from gear+anything from talents+racials - per resistance type.

Easy to establish, get a mark cast on you, and put up the resist aura of choice. You'll see 130 resist in that category, and 75 in all the others.
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:08 am

Good to know, thanks for the clarification. I guess I'll go update the post in question to get the numbers right.
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Wrathy » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:42 pm

Thanksgiving took me out of the conversation for a few days, but I guess now is as good a time as any to start establishing baselines for data collection. Theck and I have been talking sparsely in private messages about data collection, but It is probably time to get it out in the open to get a discussion going with respect to what we want to collect.

As Meloree has already pointed out, this will be very powerful when we get some new progression fights and a night of attempts under our belt. We can take a look at the death recounts and analyze the X and Y variables to establish if armor will help us survive the burst which killed us.

I have created a spreadsheet to begin collecting the data, however it was based off of ToTGC, which for my guild, does not really provide any real opportunities for a tank to die unless a mistake was made or we are talking about P3 Freezing Slashes. I will be tweaking the spread sheet later this weekend to be formatted for Gormok Impales, Twins specials, and Anub'arak P3 data, however I am not sure how valuable it will be for us in progression gearing. I think this formula will more be for verification of our gear sets during current content, and be more practical for gearing discussions during the first few weeks of ICC, where we can get a good deal of the community to contribute to the data set.

As ICC approaches and I get a few test cases in the spread sheet, I will be more than willing to share it with a few people in the community. Everyone can have read write access, so I am hesitant to plaster it on the open forums, but if you are interested let me know, and I'll share it with you when it is completed.

P.S. is this flu or cold that is going around paladin specific, i know Honors, myself and now meloree are sick with it...
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Meloree » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:12 pm

I'm more than willing to be involved in said data collection. At worst, all of Edge's parses are public on both WMO and WoL. It may or may not be a valuable perspective.

This flu sucked bigtime. I haven't been so sick in many years, I was basically bedridden for a week, except when I dragged myself out of bed to run raids. Possibly the worst raids I've run.. ever.
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Earantur » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:12 am

Wrathy wrote:FC - Overall D X and Y

Just my two pence here, but won't EH numbers for FC be somewhat skewed since since their threat table is dependant on damage reduction. For example, the more shadow res you have the less likely it is that the warlock will be attacking you. Or does this merely work as a multiplier, making high armour / resistances reduce even more damage than they would normally?

Also, if your role is to lock down one of the melee, then surely a case could be made for stamina being worth far more relative to armour than it normally would i.e. having the same EH while having an easier/harder job dependant on your stamina:armour ratio.

Just some random musings.
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Vagrant » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:44 am

Sorry Meloree, my intention was not to be overtly vague. I just wanted to stress the issue of leeching swarm, but i was in a bit of a hurry.
Gearing for LS is currently a dark art, although surviving it with basic 245++ gear is not really an issue. It's really hard to calculate any armor:stamina ratios for percentage based "magical bleed", yes? Ony ring and Glyph is what i wear in place of badge ring and scarab(n) now. Even the other scarab could go in favour of Black Heart, which makes little sense.

Now i have not read up on ICC fights. Are these formulae valid or is there more mechanics to circumvent player math (which Blizzard seems to be very much aware of, thus making things like swarm and burrowers and faction champs)?
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Re: "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Meloree » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:04 am

Vagrant wrote:Sorry Meloree, my intention was not to be overtly vague. I just wanted to stress the issue of leeching swarm, but i was in a bit of a hurry.
Gearing for LS is currently a dark art, although surviving it with basic 245++ gear is not really an issue. It's really hard to calculate any armor:stamina ratios for percentage based "magical bleed", yes? Ony ring and Glyph is what i wear in place of badge ring and scarab(n) now. Even the other scarab could go in favour of Black Heart, which makes little sense.

Now i have not read up on ICC fights. Are these formulae valid or is there more mechanics to circumvent player math (which Blizzard seems to be very much aware of, thus making things like swarm and burrowers and faction champs)?


Swarm, as it relates to tank-risk in P3, is fully covered by Theck's formulas. It's really tough to get accurate numbers to plug in for swarm on short timeframes, but it is fully covered. Swarm falls under "Y" (resistable magic damage). Now, what the tool doesn't do is take into account non-survival related factors that may reward one given stat beyond it's survival value. That's fine. It still gives you a backcheck - "Having stacked this much NR to reduce the DPS overhead so we can actually kill this guy, do I still have sufficient stats to survive the P3 burst?" "Having swapped in armor trinkets to reduce my stamina, knowing that it's a huge new-EH loss on this fight with so much magic damage devaluing the survival value of armor, do I still have sufficient stats to survive the P3 burst?"

For an Anub MT, I'm going to go ahead and argue that this is the most useful situation for this new tool in all of WotLK, because it's the only one where we're actively avoiding any more of our primary survival stat (stamina) than we have to have.

I'm not trying to be difficult.
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