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Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Dem » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:35 am

Definitely something to consider I think, encounter dependent. I like to have another CD to use and I think with the changes Blizzard are bringing in to smooth tank damage in ICC, mitigation will be more valuable as we'll be taking more hits.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Barathorn » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:55 am

Dem wrote:Definitely something to consider I think, encounter dependent. I like to have another CD to use and I think with the changes Blizzard are bringing in to smooth tank damage in ICC, mitigation will be more valuable as we'll be taking more hits.


This summed up what I was thinking when looking at how to handle the dodge loss.

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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:49 am

Lolpaladins wrote:Ok, more compelling "proof" and less paragraphs.

As Lythac pointed out, this isn't compelling either. Tank deaths on Gormok usually involve a single melee attack amongst 2-3 unavoidable damage sources. Often, it doesn't even take a melee - a bad combination of DoT+Impale+DoT can kill a weakly geared tank all by themselves.

So in your best case, you're talking about maybe 25% of the damage intake affected by armor, and as I showed in the derivation, the EH benefit of the armor scales linearly with this value. So while it's worth a passive 153 stamina for purely physical damage, it will be worth only 38 stamina for a Gormok death situation.

Furthermore, since you're only looking at one avoidable attack, the clicky is still only dropping your chance to take that melee from 35% to 25% according to your numbers. That's still a good change, but I'd easily trade down to a smaller bonus (like that of Heart of Iron) for a massive increase in passive EH.

Don't get me wrong, I love armor too. But we have to be realistic about its benefit to make sure we're making intelligent decisions as tanks. In the state of the game right now, armor simply isn't a substitute for equivalently itemized stamina, which makes armor trinkets weak relative to the other options.

To put it another way - your 'generic' main tanking set should be your high-stam EH set, and armor trinkets should be the accessories you swap in for stam trinkets on heavy physical fights, not the other way around.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Dem » Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:51 am

No disagreement with having a main gear set with plenty of stam. The numbers and calculations are impressive and definitely help to decide how to gear. End of the day though, it's not just about that - part of it is how it feels with the particular gear, encounter and raid set up. The 'art' of tanking if you will.

Besides, what else are we going to spend the hundreds of Triumph badges on?
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Donahu » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:21 pm

Dem wrote:Besides, what else are we going to spend the hundreds of Triumph badges on?


Sums up why I bought it ^^.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Meloree » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:38 pm

Lolpaladins wrote:Ok, more compelling "proof" and less paragraphs.
...

Given: the most common cause of a tank dieing on a fight like Gormok is 3 hits in a row without a big heal landing or 4 hits even with a heal or 2.

Given: You will only be tanking Gormok for 45 seconds

...

At 48k health, 2 hits for 20k and a tick of Impale for 5k doesn't kill me, nor does it proc my ardent defender, it just scares the shit out of the healers.

at 50k health 2 hits for 20.2k and a tick of impale for 5k doesn't kill me either, nor does it proc my ardent defender, it still scares the shit out of the healers.

However, in both scenarios the 3rd hit procs my ardent defender and the 4th hit kills me.

Therefore: Let's reduce the chance of that happening by as much as possible.


Your logic is predicated on your healers falling asleep. Therefore, they cannot have gotten scared. They might be slightly ashamed, though, when the yelling on vent wakes them up.

Less facetiously: You should not be tanking Gormok for 45 seconds, it should be some integer multiple of 10 seconds. If your tanks are skilled, you will be timing your taunts for immediately after impale, so as to minimize (but not remove, nobody is perfect) the chance of the other tank taking a melee hit after impale. Even when you drastically overgear the fight, it's good practice to keep your timing sharp. Further, as has been mentioned, 3 or 4 hits in a row isn't the tank-risk scenario here, it's melee+impale+bleed+melee (assuming you're appropriately geared for the encounter). If you're taking 4 impales, as your notes suggested, the appropriate way to use your cooldowns to maximize survivability is: Salvation 1 second before the 2nd impale, divine protection 1 second before the 3rd impale. The first impale (no bleed) should be risk-free. Every impale, and the bleeds and melees surrounding it, are covered by cooldown. No risk. With a 4-impale tank rotation, this is only necessary if you are taking the final 4 impales, and should not be done during the first 4, where he has less stacks of Rising Anger.

Most importantly of all, though, this is a Bad Fight for the armor trinket, and a bad fight for avoidance, because there's no need to rely on RNG (avoidance) when correct gearing and strategy make the fight entirely dependant on controllable factors, instead. To me, that's always preferable. I will take a 100% safe route whenever presented with the option, over a method with any risk associated, even if it does noticeably improve some other metric, like damage taken.

Where I'm going with all of this is that avoidance clickies are great iff they are the only possible option for increasing your chance of survival. In any other situation, they're flavour - an "oh shit, healer dc'd, press something" button. Do I use my last remaining avoidance clicky? Yeah, at Cosmic Smash on Algalon iff my healer is affected, and when tanking enraged Dreadscale, and while the other Twin has a shield up. In other words, it's a nice bonus, it's not something to focus on, the passive effects on trinkets are massively more important.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby rocket » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:07 pm

People still die on Gormok? (specifically pallies)?
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Wrathy » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:36 am

rocket wrote:People still die on Gormok? (specifically pallies)?

My fury warrior still does...

But thats is because he keeps standing in Melee range and slamming his attacks, while I wait that quarter of a second to let gormok teach him a lesson....
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