Remove Advertisements

[25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, guillex

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Loras » Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:48 am

Kanst, what you said, I perfectly realize. My very question still remains the same - how you deal with the ball spawner IN the doorway, right underneath your fees, which pops a ball that detonates as soon as it spawns because it spawns right under your feet. If you get 2 of them in a row (hell, even 1 sometimes), it instagibs half the people without any chance to react, because of the instant happening. Or put in another way - how come people on videos don't get hurt by that, while we get instagibbed. And no, it's not a soaker problem, because there were no orbs in a 20-yard radius at least. And even if it's only one orb that spawns - the raid in the videos doesn't even seem to take dmg, or at least not the dmg they are supposed to take from an opposite-colored ball detonating at them. And you just can't convince me that they don't have to deal with such a ball, because there IS a spawn there, you just can't help it. Ad then again - we're so unlucky to get instagibbed two times in a row, while on the videos they don't take damage - am I going mental or what...

Sorry if I sound bitter, just it keeps looking awkward and still most of the things said are a repetition of old info which I already know (I hope, hehe) :)
Image
User avatar
Loras
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:07 am

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby ydraw » Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:57 am

Just 1 quick question for those that use DPS soakers:

Do you use a 2nd tank attuned to light to tank the mob they are DPSing, or can a tank attuned to black hold threat off them just as well? Or do you tell them to forget about DPSing altogether except when the shield is up?

I thought about using a 2nd tank attuned to light but then wouldn't that just result in your melee getting killed?
ydraw
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:45 pm

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby kanst » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:00 am

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/hw4q ... 229&e=4501

That is our damage taken for that fight. If you look through half the raid took 2 hits of unleashed dark for 23k dmg. I am pretty sure both of those came from the outside but it possible they spawned in the door. Ill have to wait and see today to see if we have an orb spawning in the door, but I dont think we do. Either way your healers should be spamming AOE heals for most of the fight, so half the raid taking an 11k hit shouldnt really wipe you

Possible stupid question, your standing in the door your enter ToGC from right?
Image
kanst
 
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 9:02 am

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Loras » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:11 am

Yes, we are at that door. And yes, 11-15k itself may not kill, but vortex + ball + dot + surge will. Not to mention I think we had 2 balls from the same spawner one after another so it was more than 20k (could be mistaken about the 2nd orb though). And since on Vortexes balls spawn from EVERY spawn point, you will have at least 2 orbs for the whole fight there, not including the random spawns during the rest of the time. And it's a bit RNG to rely on a white ball not spawning while there is a white vortex.

Also (still for the doorway approach) - if you split the raid in 2 camps, you have to have soakers for both colours, no? In which case it makes the job much harder. (we don't include resistance soaking, it's too gimmick). And if you still do it with 20 with dark, hunters and rogues with light, where do rogues stay? Hunters presumably soak white bolls and shoot while soaking, but rogues have to dps in melee range, in which case they'll get hit from the black orbs slipping through to empower the raid. Or maybe you also have the rogues soak, but then they won't be attacking most of the time unless there's an opposite shield...

I don't know, I guess I just can't comprehend it, but still I see those potentially wrong things on the tactical side that will make us fail miserably.
Image
User avatar
Loras
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:07 am

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby <Palad> » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:40 am

........................DoorEdge

DTank

...............Bosses....Raid

LTank

........................DoorEdge

Thats how we set up. Tanks don't move at all they just form a fence of sorts and most orbs will hit them. Nobody is out playing in the orb field behind the tanks the whole raid is in the Gaypile. Hunters sometimes have trouble getting range but most times can back deep into the corner of the door and get just enough room.

Bad Vortex takes everyone using Health Rocks, Aborbing cooldowns, healer Cooldowns, and a Pally Bubble Sanc. If we get 2 its likely we are going to lose a few but at this point the bosses are about to die so what does live threw the 2nd will finish off the kill.

Are off color to assist with breaking the Dark Bubble is Pally and Mages that can bubble/Iceblock thier way threw the off Vortex.
User avatar
<Palad>
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby kanst » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:58 am

Loras wrote:Yes, we are at that door. And yes, 11-15k itself may not kill, but vortex + ball + dot + surge will. Not to mention I think we had 2 balls from the same spawner one after another so it was more than 20k (could be mistaken about the 2nd orb though). And since on Vortexes balls spawn from EVERY spawn point, you will have at least 2 orbs for the whole fight there, not including the random spawns during the rest of the time. And it's a bit RNG to rely on a white ball not spawning while there is a white vortex.

Also (still for the doorway approach) - if you split the raid in 2 camps, you have to have soakers for both colours, no? In which case it makes the job much harder. (we don't include resistance soaking, it's too gimmick). And if you still do it with 20 with dark, hunters and rogues with light, where do rogues stay? Hunters presumably soak white bolls and shoot while soaking, but rogues have to dps in melee range, in which case they'll get hit from the black orbs slipping through to empower the raid. Or maybe you also have the rogues soak, but then they won't be attacking most of the time unless there's an opposite shield...

I don't know, I guess I just can't comprehend it, but still I see those potentially wrong things on the tactical side that will make us fail miserably.


So I guess I havent seen the bad luck with orbs. I will have to look today when we kill it. However in our example I am pretty sure those 2 orbs came from the outside. But I will try putting up name tags to see what you see.

I know there is an orb that spawns right on the edge of the door and normally goes in, but that is just an annoyance for soakers.

As for our soakers, we have 2, we get different colors but it really doesnt matter. Our soakers both have over 50k health, and we just run and indiscimantly smack any orb near the raid. There is no resistances, but we both spec tank for reduced dmg taken. We have 2 holy pallies, each one is assigned to beaconing a soaker to provide constant healing to the soaker. Soakers will get rocked with dmg thats what they are there for. In our strat the raid is split as evenly as possible. On our last kill we had 7 heals, and 4 tanks, so that meant 7 dps on each mob. The whole raid just crams into the door, there is no specific positioning.

Healing does have to spike like mad during vortex's but IMO its easier to do when you have the raid split in two. We split the raid so that group 1&3 is one color and 2&4 is another color, there are 2 priests and they are each assigned a pair of groups, so one priest gets 1&2 the other gets 3&4 and it is there job to throw prayer of healing on that group. Since the whole raid is packed in things like healing stream totem and chain heal are really great heals. By dividing the raid you know exactly what groups should be taking dmg with each special which makes your life easier as a healer.
Image
kanst
 
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 9:02 am

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby fafhrd » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:27 am

Loras wrote:Kanst, what you said, I perfectly realize. My very question still remains the same - how you deal with the ball spawner IN the doorway, right underneath your fees, which pops a ball that detonates as soon as it spawns because it spawns right under your feet. If you get 2 of them in a row (hell, even 1 sometimes), it instagibs half the people without any chance to react, because of the instant happening. Or put in another way - how come people on videos don't get hurt by that, while we get instagibbed. And no, it's not a soaker problem, because there were no orbs in a 20-yard radius at least. And even if it's only one orb that spawns - the raid in the videos doesn't even seem to take dmg, or at least not the dmg they are supposed to take from an opposite-colored ball detonating at them. And you just can't convince me that they don't have to deal with such a ball, because there IS a spawn there, you just can't help it. Ad then again - we're so unlucky to get instagibbed two times in a row, while on the videos they don't take damage - am I going mental or what...

Sorry if I sound bitter, just it keeps looking awkward and still most of the things said are a repetition of old info which I already know (I hope, hehe) :)


We don't deal with it, it's literally never ever been a problem. I imagine it's being healed and shielded through like the other raid damage when it occurs.
ImageImage
1/1 Lore pre-nerf.
User avatar
fafhrd
 
Posts: 5432
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:31 pm

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:13 pm

kanst wrote:I also dont see the point in 1 tanking, shield DPS isnt that hard. If you have a raid capable of switchng quick it should never be an issue.


With our strat a 2nd tank is useless, so why bring it?

Understanding multiple dependencies is hard.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5085
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Loras » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:09 pm

fafhrd wrote:We don't deal with it, it's literally never ever been a problem. I imagine it's being healed and shielded through like the other raid damage when it occurs.

If you mean my issue with the ball spawn - you can't shield through it because you don't know when it's coming - it happens instantly.
Image
User avatar
Loras
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:07 am

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby fafhrd » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:43 pm

Loras wrote:
fafhrd wrote:We don't deal with it, it's literally never ever been a problem. I imagine it's being healed and shielded through like the other raid damage when it occurs.

If you mean my issue with the ball spawn - you can't shield through it because you don't know when it's coming - it happens instantly.


I'm labouring under the assumption that our priests (and probably valanyr's) are keeping the raid shielded pretty often. I don't really know if they are since I don't heal or know how to, but I know we don't randomly have the raid falling over dead every few attempts, and I know we have everyone crammed into the door without trying to avoid any particular part of it, so either your raid gets completely different spawns of orbs, or our healers are just healing through the damage from them. Having a shield on everyone is the standard pre-emptive heal for unpredictable damage that'd exceed a player's HP.

edit: checked, apparently that's not it, since we didn't have our usual Disc priest last week: the death's log for the fight is http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ror0 ... 128&e=4404 - one rogue died to eating more orbs than the tank, one hunter died to being dumb and using deterrence early. Both were the minority color. The rogue actually went 7 seconds without any real heals (and that was just a glyph of holy light splash) which was probably what killed him. Feel free to poke about the logs and figure out if we're taking fewer orbs than you though. If we are, who knows, maybe they've hotfixed more spawns in since we killed them last tuesday (will find out tonight then).
ImageImage
1/1 Lore pre-nerf.
User avatar
fafhrd
 
Posts: 5432
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:31 pm

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Loras » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:42 am

Valanyr.... *sob*. Not a valid argument for us :)
Orb fix - not sure, highly doubt it was *just* hotfixed.

Well, as I said, we had only 3 attempts left, one of which was a normal middle positioning (failed), so we tried the doorway only twice. First attempt everyone died within 10 sec. Second attempt 30-40% died within the first 10 sec from balls, 10-20% more died from Vortex cause nobody could heal it (healers dead ^^), and with half raid we brought them down to 50% before they healed with the Bad Shield (we nuked the Good Shield with half the raid alive, although did it in the last 0.01 sec).

Ah, also just saw a guy from mmo-champion forums, who was wondering if Twins got hotfixed somehow, because their Divine Sac couldn't keep the raid up like before. Not sure about that, check that as well if possible.
Image
User avatar
Loras
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:07 am

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Niinbob » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:45 am

Yeah i don't know, we stack in the doorway and have no problems keeping the raid up. Looking at our WOL the melee take a few orbs along with some ranged taking 1 or 2, but as i said earlier we don't use soakers, we let the tanks block orbs from getting to the door so melee tend to get hit by the orb splash sometimes. I don't want to sound mean but maybe your healers are not doing as well as they should? It appears all the dmg we take is healable pretty easily but we try to use 2 hpally, 1 disc, 2 hpriests, 1 rshaman, 1 rdruid (with valanyr's). As long as we divine sac/aura mastery the light vortex and everyone that has light essence immunes the dark vortex we have no problems.


*****This would most likely not get you a kill*****
Maybe try and bring like 8 or 9 healers and just overheal it to see if people are really getting "1 shot" or if people are just taking constant dmg and not being healing enough.
Image
Niinbob
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:14 am

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Loras » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:55 am

Well, I have my own explanation to it - that maybe some of the side orbs hit someone not too bunched up. But it still doesn't eliminate the spawn you're standing on. And I tell you, it was not healable, I was watching, wasn't healing slackery. you're at full hp, 1-1.5 sec later 15 people are dead. This can't be healed. But anyway, I'll report again when we have more tries (which won't be soon, cause I will be absent for 2 weeks, and then Icecrown will come, hehe).
Image
User avatar
Loras
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:07 am

Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby fafhrd » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:17 am

If you're just seeing your raid fall over dead on your 3rd pull, you are probably just having healers not healing and blockers not blocking. Fix all that first and see if these orb spawns on your raid are what's actually killing you or not. You basically just said "we tried a strat that wipes instantly if heals or blocking are missing a little, and wiped instantly, I think it's because we're getting orb spawns on the raid that no one else has trouble with".
ImageImage
1/1 Lore pre-nerf.
User avatar
fafhrd
 
Posts: 5432
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:31 pm

Previous

Return to T9: Argent Coliseum / Koralon

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 0 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 0 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests