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Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby hthomas13 » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:27 am

I don't know how predictable CC is, considering that I, as a pally tank during this fight after my target is dead (normal mode), is being targeted by a druid's cyclone and a warlock's fear. I was simply judging the target with wisdom and hitting it with SoR, being at about 70% health because I specified not to heal me unless I was about to die.

If anything this pattern would be quite odd and have many variables into calculating the target, because I was doing nearly nothing...just raid leading. (CC leading? =P)
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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby fafhrd » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:25 am

Results from last night indicate that they also prefer as a target whoever is angriest on vent during the fight.
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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby hthomas13 » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:16 am

fafhrd wrote:Results from last night indicate that they also prefer as a target whoever is angriest on vent during the fight.


/agree
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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby Koatanga » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:34 pm

This is a screen shot from last night's 25-man Heroic raid. This is toward the end of the fight. The mage I am targeting just swapped targets from me to a plate-wearing DPS.

Notice I took 47% of the damage dealt through the fight. The next closest person (ret pally) took 5%.

I am in full prot gear except for my healing sword and shield. I seal and judge Justice. Consecrate is not in my rotation. I didn't taunt, as it is useless in the heroic form of the encounter.

On the pull, the rogue sapped the shadow priest. I ran toward the group and cast AS right before the proximity at which they would aggro to me. They stayed on me reliably throughout the fight, as recount shows.

I have high armour, I don't have many resists, and while I have proximity on the pull itself, after the pull there are lots of people around me, and the casters tend to move away from me.

Obviously I was taking a bit of healing, but my health remained topped up because the healers could focus on me.

Once again, I don't think this behaviour fits within the defined threat parameters. However, it is consistent and repeatable.

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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby Róuge » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:09 am

So what are you saying is your "trick" to get them to focus you?

Just equipping a healing Shield and Sword makes them want to focus you?

I have tried the encounter in full healing gear while still prot spec, stand right in the middle of them all after casting AS to open the fight, spamming cleanse and take Zero damage, they ignore me!

How do you make it repeatable that they focus you? Or could it be the others in your raid making the Faction Champs prefer you rather than actually what you are doing?
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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby Meyrinn » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:25 am

Ran a few test of our own over the past few days and it appears that most of what is said is true, but not totally complete. Even when holding full aggro on mobs and no one else was hurt, they would occasionaly do things like charge, and SW:Pain someone at full health.

With all the adds clustered on me, the casters would stray off to get range it appeared. They would have no target and start running away.

We put two warlocks on each side of the room with me tanking in the middle.

When I was allowed to build some threat and trying to threat the mobs, the warlocks had to tap to under 50% health to pull off me.

When I was doing nothing but standing there staring at the mobs, it took very little health lost from the warlocks to pull off me.

However, when they were loose and running towards the warlocks, they could basically swap threat at will and cause the melee to just run back and forth between them.

It seems there is some ability to generate threat on the mobs with conventional means. But this threat gets thrown out the window at some points in the fight.

Even prior to this information, I've never had issues holding the melee on me until the healers were dead. Its very hard to get the melee back on me when I lose them, but this info made it much easier. We had a Druid root one of the melee if I lost them and I would stand next to it and get beaten on with no heals. After losing a decent amount of health, the rest of the melee would come to help him.
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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby Koatanga » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:45 pm

Róuge wrote:So what are you saying is your "trick" to get them to focus you?

Just equipping a healing Shield and Sword makes them want to focus you?

I have tried the encounter in full healing gear while still prot spec, stand right in the middle of them all after casting AS to open the fight, spamming cleanse and take Zero damage, they ignore me!

How do you make it repeatable that they focus you? Or could it be the others in your raid making the Faction Champs prefer you rather than actually what you are doing?

I am not certain what the factor is that keep sthem focused upon me. I presented what I wear, what I do, and how I do it because the results I achieve are not explained by the AI behaviour outlined in this thread.

I have high armour, I am often topped up, and there are others who are at the same proximity with lower armour. Given that they take 200k damage over the fight, it is reasonable to assume that at some point they have less health than I do as well.

We don't give any special instructions except to assign some interrupts on the healers, one person to the pet, and who the two tanks are going to try to "control" (the last point being a bit of a laugh since there is supposed to be nothing a non-DK tank can do to control anything in there except for the pets).

I say it is repeatable becasue each time we do that fight the same thing happens - the Champions all attack me and stay on me (or return to me) throughout the fight. The Recount numbers for Damage Taken prove that to be the case - it's not just a graphical glitch of my nameplate mod showing red plates instead of yellow ones.

So given how I was able to dominate that fight, and given that the analysis of the AI behaviour doesn't explain why, I provide my experience with accompanying data to suggest there may be something more that has not yet been explored.

It could be that the constant influx of damage I take from being only person in proximity at the time of the pull means that I am never truly "topped up" and that I have sufficient deficit to keep them interested. However, I don't think that explains why they would return to me once they go off after someone else. And since I am taking so much damage from them all hitting me, I am being healed by several healers constantly. They get appropriate amounts of overhealing, which suggests I am indeed getting topped up.

Certainly I encourage other tanks, particularly in groups struggling with this encounter, to try to duplicate my experience. I would like to know the results.
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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby Meyrinn » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:45 am

There is something still missing. But, after running some more testing there is alot of merit in the OP's post. I've always had a horrible time holding threat in normal and 10 mans. This appears to be due to them doing less damage to me in those modes. I tried tanking them by turning my back to them in 10 normal and they stuck to me like glue.

I think there is still normal threat generation from damage done to some extent. While trying to threat them they seem to stay on me longer. But, if you just stand there and do nothing their behaviour shows the OP's analysis more prevalently. When you kill the ranged first you can see a consistent ordering of the players in your threat meter, with your threat moving here and there based on the damage you've taken. Change something up and it reflects shortly in the order. A warlock using an armor pot drops down, and mage changing to Ice Armor drops down.

I believe the normal threat rules apply for pulling aggro. 110% at melee range, and 130% further out. I've seen people over me in threat, but not over the pull threshold and the mobs don't change target.

I usually hold threat for a very long time in ToGC 25 but once I lose it on all the mobs its impossible to get them back in the past. This week I was able to re-establish aggro on all the melee just by having one rooted and standing next to it and taking damage.
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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby Ragingsoul » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:27 pm

same, in my normal gear, I'm the one pulling with AS on the melees, on 25men hc.

I'm generally tanking the DK, warr, rogue and hunter about 1/2 the fight. nothing to do with armor, since I'm almost doing this every week, it's not random at all.
While tanking new content, one rule is important -- it's not about taking less damage; it's about being able to take more.
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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby maurok » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:39 pm

I'm doing FC today.... they just don't stay on me the same way they did before

we killed them with 0~2 wipes on the last 4 weeks, but now it is just not working

have you guys been noticing that?
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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby Belloc » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:08 pm

maurok wrote:I'm doing FC today.... they just don't stay on me the same way they did before

we killed them with 0~2 wipes on the last 4 weeks, but now it is just not working

have you guys been noticing that?

Worked fine. Tank pulled at half health, held mobs until getting healed to full... was able to get nearby mobs back when health dropped.
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Re: Faction Champions AI Behavior: A Definitive Analysis

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:54 pm

I've found standing next to rooted mobs is great for drawing aggro.
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