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Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Belloc » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:17 am

Worldie wrote:
Belloc wrote:Ask them if they want random shadow strikes killing people in the raid (phase 3 transition can screw up boss mod timers on shadow strike).

Deus Vox is extremely accurate for Shadowstrike timers. I really would recommend it to anyone attempting it.

As an extra note, now when anub is < 15% we stop killing adds and just zerg him down. Works wonders.

Do you use heroism at that point? I called out for the switch at 10% last night... we had about 50 seconds to finish him. Unfortunately, MT healers ran out of mana and we wiped. After murdering all of our DPS, the boss was at 4%. He would have died :(
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Worldie » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Atm we use Bloodlust at the 30% mark. I also think that in theory it would be better used at the "burn" moment, but it comes at different %, depending on how we are doing with adds... usually after 15% we go like "ok this is the last set of adds we kill", that means we finish those adds (thus cutting another 3-4% off the boss), then we take the next adds off the ice, then they got 45 seconds to burn him, and if more adds spawn, we stun / kite / outlive them as long as we can. One of our kills happened with 8 adds up and half of the raid dead, and a rogue happily evasiontanking anub arak lolo
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby fafhrd » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:38 pm

Anub's health does drop a lot faster once you have the annoying tanks with their 50k hp nicely faceplanted. The trick is getting him to switch to a rogue or hunter to tank him before he gibs some DPS.

None of our kills have been like that, but we've had many wipes his health went slowly down from 30-12%, the MT died, and then his health dropped like a rock to 5% while he chewed through DPS and healers one by one, then slowly dropped to 1-2% while he killed the last few rogues and hunters one by one.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:39 am

Been reading through the thread since I should get a chance to attempt this tonight (though not with my own guild, sadly), and I noticed that the SoC vs. SoV debate came up, so I figured I should weigh in.

The calculation I did was for SoV vs. SoC in an environment with no Reckoning. It also assumed you were tab-targeting to spread HV stacks around evenly.

It's entirely possible to do this on Anub adds, because they last long enough to easily get a 3+ stack on average (i.e. accounting for ramp-up time) for all four with proper tab-targeting. So if you don't spec Reckoning, I think that SoV will probably win out, or at the very least be roughly comparable.

However, the insane attack rate you'll be experiencing tanking multiple adds makes Reckoning amazing for this one specific fight. I will be taking my standard 53/18 threat build and swapping 1 point into SoC from Conviction and 2 points from Imp. HoJ to Reckoning for tonight.

To see why, let's do some quick math. If "massive nerdery" isn't your thing, skip to the end.

Reckoning uptime is most easily calculated by figuring out it's downtime, i.e. the chance that Reckoning is not active. That chance is:

Code: Select all
reck_down = (1 - 0.02*Reck_Points*(1-player_avoidance))^(4*weapon_swing*incoming_attack_rate)

In other words, there's a 0.02*(# of points in Reckoning)*(chance you don't avoid an attack) chance that reckoning will proc on any given attack. There's a 1-(that stuff) chance it won't proc, so if you're taking N attacks per second, the chance of not having a proc to refresh it in the time it takes for the effect to expire is (1-stuff)^(N * expiration_time)

The expiration time is 4x your weapon swing rate, since you probably won't be using a 2.0+ speed weapon for this.

Plugging in some sample numbers, use:
weapon_swing = 1.25 seconds
player_avoid = 60
Reck_points = 5
incoming_attack_rate = 16 attacks/second

reck_down = 0.0382
reck_up = 0.9618

In other words, with five points in Reckoning, you'd have 96% uptime on the buff, netting you double damage from all SoC proc effects. That's the real reason SoComm really shines in this one scenario.

Just to check, here's the uptime for different values of Reck_points, for both strategies:
Code: Select all
Reck_points   4 mobs (16 aps)     2 mobs (8 aps)
1 point           47%               27%
2 points          72%               48%
3 points          86%               62%
4 points          93%               73%
5 points          96%               80%

If you're tanking all 4 mobs, then even 1 point in Reckoning will make a significant impact in your SoCom damage.

Using the same code that generated the plot Awyndel is referring to:
For 4 mobs SoC only trails SoV with a 5-stack on each mob by 200 DPS. SoC itself puts out 497 DPS per mob, while SoV puts out 651 DPS per mob with a 5-stack and HV puts out 307 per mob for a 5-stack. For a 3-stack, SoV is only 391 DPS and HV is only 184. So for 4 mobs, SoC is putting out 497*3=1491 dps, while SoV is putting out 958 DPS with a 5-stack or 575 DPS with a 3-stack.

Using the 3-stack as an estimate to account for ramp-up time would indicate that it takes only a 15% increase in SoC damage output for it to surpass SoV, which would mean even one point in Reckoning is enough to make SoC the better seal.

For a 5-stack (which I guess means your AoE DPS players are pretty weak? How long does it take to kill the burrowers on average?), it would take a 92% increase in output, which would only happen with 4+ points in Reckoning.

Short Version: Assuming that a 3-stack is a good average value over the lifetime of the burrowers, SoC with one point in Reckoning is mathematically superior to SoV for this one particular role in this one particular encounter, whether you use the 1 or 2 add tank strategy. For a 4-stack average it would take 2(3) points for the 1(2) tank strategy, and for a 5-stack it would take 4+ (not possible) points for the 1(2) tank strategy.

My only decision for tonight is whether I want to pick up a third point in Reckoning by dropping Divine Sacrifice, or whether I think there will be any point at which I can pop DSac during phase 3. I will probably be solo-tanking the adds, and I don't know how much down-time to expect between add death and the next spawn on heroic 25-man.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:57 am

Also note that this doesn't take into account a lot of other effects, like the change in Judgement damage, and so on. It's just looking at the seal component. Though if you're tanking 4 adds, the seal is going to be the largest chunk of your damage, and thus the most relevant. I'd put the accuracy of these numbers at +/- 10%, which is still good enough for SoC + 1 point in Reckoning to be solidly ahead.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Neara » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:15 am

If your raid is weak in killing the Adds in time, 5/5 Reckoning + SoComm is really nice. I respec for this fight, because from comparing WoLs with other raids doing Anub25 hm i have to say, the dps of my raid sucks big time. 5/5 Reck + SoComm puts me at 5,5 - 6k DPS during p1+p2 closing in at our last DD. Can't wait to see what'll happen at p3 when there are more add-waves than 2 in a row.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Worldie » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:29 am

Theck, you won't really have ANY chance to pop DS in phase 3. Unless you got exceptional DPS, adds will spawn a maximum of 10 seconds after the previous set of add is dead.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:37 am

Worldie wrote:Theck, you won't really have ANY chance to pop DS in phase 3. Unless you got exceptional DPS, adds will spawn a maximum of 10 seconds after the previous set of add is dead.

Hm... and 5 seconds of raidwall time is probably not enough to offset the increased DPS on each wave of adds that the third point in Reckoning brings to the table.

Good to know. Looks like this will be my spec for tonight then.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:41 am

Another interesting question is whether a point in Crusade does more for you than any given point in Reckoning for this fight. My guess is that Crusade is still ahead there, except for possibly the very first point in Reckoning.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Aubade » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:19 pm

theckhd wrote:
Worldie wrote:Theck, you won't really have ANY chance to pop DS in phase 3. Unless you got exceptional DPS, adds will spawn a maximum of 10 seconds after the previous set of add is dead.

Hm... and 5 seconds of raidwall time is probably not enough to offset the increased DPS on each wave of adds that the third point in Reckoning brings to the table.

Good to know. Looks like this will be my spec for tonight then.


Do you really have 2/2 imp judgement? Theck i'm 100% Dissapointed in you.

Also, for tonight? I use that spec all the time. Just take out 1 in judge and put it in Benediction
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:21 pm

Aubade wrote:Do you really have 2/2 imp judgement? Theck i'm 100% Dissapointed in you.

Also, for tonight? I use that spec all the time. Just take out 1 in judge and put it in Benediction

Er.... you're a top-50 main tank and you put a point in Benediction because....?

Clearly I need to apply to FL and show them some real tanking.

That second point in improved Judgement is far more useful than a point in Benediction for certain fights.

In any event, it's a flavor choice anyway. The extra second off of Judgement is useless the majority of the time, but so is a pathetic amount of mp5. I worked out the exact mp5 equivalence in a thread somewhere, and it was depressingly low. You shouldn't be running OOM ever anyway outside of Vezax.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Meloree » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:17 pm

Aubade wrote:Do you really have 2/2 imp judgement? Theck i'm 100% Dissapointed in you.

Also, for tonight? I use that spec all the time. Just take out 1 in judge and put it in Benediction


Ewwwww, you take Benediction?

Is there an emoticon for warding off evil, or something?
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Joanadark » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:24 pm

whats wrong with a second point in imp judge? its pretty useful for add fights to have an extra second off a ranged snap threat ability.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Levantine » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:27 pm

ITT: Awbade getting schooled.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Epimer » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:25 pm

Obligatory repost of this from the last time someone suggested 2/2 Imp Judgements is bad:

Addressing the same point - with 2/2 Imp Judgements, you get (for illustrative purposes):

0 - Judgement
1.5 - ShoR
3 - Holy Shield
4.5 - HotR
6 - Consecrate
7.5 - ShoR
(8 - Judgement off cooldown)
9 - Judgement

You can't cast Judgement early and thus break your rotation because you're still in the GCD from the previous 6 second ability when Judgement becomes available. So it's only a wasted point in that it doesn't improve your rotation, but it does have the aforementioned benefits of a ranged pick-up ability being available earlier when you need it (Thorim's arena, any other add pick-up fight). It's a reasonable way to spend the filler point.
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