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Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

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Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Barathorn » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:36 am

Anyone got any ideas/thoughts on pushing Armor to the cap with the [Glyph of Indomitability] as well as some of the new ICC gear announched? Does this trinket now become a viable piece or still a poor choice against the other options?

Thoughts?

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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Prax » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:07 am

With ICR it almost sounds like a great direction to head into. Both a chest item and a Head Item having 3.5k armor is insane! That and the new badge trinket, with 228stam on it :D (Which btw I am happy they did, cause stam trinkets just don't drop for me.)
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Fenrìr » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:11 am

Personally, I'm really picky about my stam trinkets. I like having the on use ability of something I can control (IE: 10% dodge on a second's call) as well as the static stam. Trinkets from ToGC have really disappointed me as does the General's Heart from Vezax. So this trinket is, to me, inferior to how I gear.

The badge trinket...meh. 3.2k damage absorption as an on use, is at best, one smack to the face. The stam isn't anything to scoff at, I just personally like to have useful 'on use' abilities that aren't going to be soaked up in 1 hit.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Wrathy » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:10 pm

From my perspective, I think it depends on how close you are to the armor cap. As the DR for armor kicks in more and more, the relative effective health of stamina seems more appealing to me. The question is take the armor, or take 216/228 stamina. If we see a lot of scattered magic damage, the straight stamina will more than likely be better.

I am not the resident math wiz, but I think it would be interesting to see what kind of damage reduction we would receive from the trinket versus stacking 228 more stamina, and extending our ardent defender talent by 2.5k hp. Now granted, the AD reduction in damage taken is only if you are taking hits that drop you below 35 percent, however, that is when we need it most.

In the end, it may be a very powerful trinket when it comes to a fast and hard physical damage boss, but I dont think I will be able to make that decision until I get some gear from ICC and see how close I can get to the armor cap, as well as how often i drop down to sub 30% hp. Right now, in half 245 half 258 gear, I am sitting at about 32000 armor, thats a long ways to the armor cap, which i believe is upwards of 46k.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Petrus » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:55 am

I'm guessing that if we hit a fast DW anything that's really physically focused, it may perform very well. Outside of that, I'm going to go dual stams (192/228) for almost everything.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Argali » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:43 am

I've always used the arm to stm formula to see if I should use it.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p488516

The trinket is better IMO if the difference between the equivalent stm and whatever else you're using is minor. Prevented damage doesn't have to be healed after all.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby rathe » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:48 pm

Petrus wrote:I'm guessing that if we hit a fast DW anything that's really physically focused, it may perform very well. Outside of that, I'm going to go dual stams (192/228) for almost everything.


Petrus, I'm just curious but how come both stam trinkets when they share a CD?
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Petrus » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:32 pm

I can count on one hand how often the dodge on-use effect of my second (Heart of Iron) or the shield absorb of the Skeleton Key is used. The absorb is pretty handy but tbh it's just like an extra bit of block on one hit every couple of minutes. The stam on the trinkets themselves is more important than the on-use effects.

I'd use a trinket with 300 stam even if it had an on-click 800 spirit over a trinket with 200 stam and an on-use health clicky, and I bet most other tanks would too.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby rathe » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:59 am

And I'd be one of those tanks :D .

I do use the heart around unavoidables hoping to reduce spike dmg.

Though it does seem that stam is gonna be the way to go still and the point is moot as I'll probably pick up the emblem trinket with 228 stam on it.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:43 am

I hate to disagree with my esteemed fellow tankadins, but the badge trinket is simply the best one you can use.

ToTC is all about EH, not just HP.

A large percentage of the damage occurring on the tanks in ToTC is unavoidable, but it is mitigatable with armor.

The Glyph of Indomitability will add more EH as one of your trinkets than a 2nd stamina trinket will...

I cry inside everytime I see a tank using two stamina trinkets, as you are simply making it harder on your healers to keep you alive.

Once your stamina is at a level (buffed) that allows you to survive, adding more stamina at the expense of armor simply makes you a mana sponge. Adding armor (and in some cases avoidance) makes you easier to heal.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:16 am

The only unavoidable, mitigated-by-armor damage in ToC is Impale (the attack not the bleed), and Anub's attacks during Freezing Slash. That's not a large percentage.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby rathe » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:02 pm

That and I think Bara was asking in terms of ICC encounters, unless you meant that ICC will probably have the same types of damage as ToC which is fair. There's quite a few magic damage bosses though aren't there?
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:37 pm

You forgot icehowl (stuns)

My point was that stacking stamina to the exclusion of every other stat is not ideal.

As you pointed out, there are only a few fights with large amounts of unavoidable damage, basically the beasts encounter and the Anub encounter (main tank). These two favor EH as the large damage components are armor mitigatable.

The other encounters don't have large spike damage.

The problem with stacking stamina is that you are taking a lot of damage, and so, require a lot of healing.

Putting some added emphasis on armor, reduces the actual healing requirement.

Basically, the simple rule has always been quite effective, namely, the harder the boss actually hits, the better armor works.

Simple example. Lets take 2 tanks...one has 30k AC buffed and 52k HP. Other has 33k AC buffed and 49k HP.

Assuming the boss hits for the following raw numbers: 50k, 60k, 70k, 80k, 90k, 100k, 110k, 120k

Working in the difference in mitigation, the different tanks would be able to survive the following number of unhealed hits:

30kAC/52k HP: 3.303, 2.752, 2.359, 2.064, 1.835, 1.652, 1.501, 1.376
33kAC/49k HP: 3.313, 2.761, 2.366, 2.071, 1.841, 1.657, 1.506, 1.380

Notice the lower hp tank actually handles the incoming damage better, and his block value and healers absorbs are worth more (ie blocks/absorbs a higher percentage of the unmitigated damage).

Icecrown will be a new game, but, since they are effectively nerfing avoidance by 20% post DR, I have to assume that avoidance will be more important than it is now.

The choice between AC trinkets, stamina trinkets and avoidance trinkets are going to strictly depend on the fight dynamics. But I wouldn't fully discount avoidance.

The 20% avoidance debuff means tanks will be getting hit a lot more often and the fact that they are employing this debuff, leads me to believe there is still going to be a significant amount of physical damage in ICC.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby Awyndel » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:22 am

The armor trinket will never be viable because the stamina trinkets offer the same or more EH.

It's only usable in situations where your healers are going oom or where you're not allowed to have high hp.
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Re: Thoughts on [Glyph of Indomitability] with ICC gear?

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:22 pm

I think you're ignoring several very significant sources of damage in ToC that armor is 100% useless for:

Impale DoT ticks
Molten Spew (which depending on strat, can come in concert with several stacks of the aforementioned DoT)
Jaraxxus Lightning
Light/Dark Vortex
Light/Dark Orbs
Leeching Swarm (though stamina has it's drawbacks here too)
Penetrating Cold

Just from that list, every fight in there other than Faction Champs has significant amounts of armor-unfriendly damage to consider. I could see swapping an armor trinket in for certain fights, Anub being the main one. But it's definitely not the best strategy for every fight in there.
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