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[25 Heroic] Anub'arak

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Re: [25 Heroic] Anub'arak

Postby Treck » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:42 am

There is a way to see marks on grid, found highly usefull by our healers, since then it was basicly just to tell them what marks they should keep alive.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Anub'arak

Postby Belloc » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:55 am

Treck wrote:There is a way to see marks on grid, found highly usefull by our healers, since then it was basicly just to tell them what marks they should keep alive.

I don't know if it will be the same for you, but our healers reported a slight delay in the marks being applied for penetrating cold. When you only have 3 seconds to get two players up, even a small delay can be a huge problem.

If you haven't noticed the same effect, please say so. Our experience may very well have been inaccurate.
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Anub 25 Heroic

Postby Araiken » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:08 am

I pretty much read all the threads on this forum pertaining to 25man Anub (Heroic) and I had a question that I don't remember seeing an answer to. Everyone is saying that using two BR/BV is a lot easier than having one, but I don't know why people say this. Last night we put our first night of attempts into this boss and got to P3 consistently with the whole raid alive but healers were wondering if they could just worry about healing on add tank instead of two.

Thanks for the help.
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Re: Anub 25 Heroic

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:53 am

It depends on positioning and gearing -- how did you do your 2 tank positioning? If you have two add tanks stacked on one ice patch, IMO you're consolidating the worst bits of the 1/2 add tank strats into a single strat.

If you have two add tanks spread on 2 patches at anub's hind legs, you can interrupt shadow strike reactively.

If you have one add tank for the 4 adds, you'll have to interrupt preemptively. If you have been stacking all 4 adds on one patch with two tanks, you can probably switch to one tank, assuming you have an unhittable set.

Well, here's how the permutations break down:

2 add tanks, 2 ice patches:
Pros:
    * no special gear requirements.
    * reactive shadow strike interrupts
    * easy pickup
Cons:
    * 2 add tanks to heal
    * positioning for AOE/incidental splash damage can be a bitch
    * requires 2 ice patches

2 tanks, 1 ice patch:
Pros:
    * easy pickup
    * easy positioning for AOE/splash
Cons:
    * 2 add tanks to heal
    * requires 2 passive unhittable sets
    * requires preemptive shadow strike interrupts
    * requires 2 ice patches

1 add tank, 1 patch:
Pros:
    * 1 add tank to heal
    * easy positioning
    * requires 1 ice patch
Cons:
    * pickup can be a bitch
    * requires passive unhittable set
    * requires preemptive shadow strike interrupts

If you're going with a single add tank, a warrior in an unhittable set will take less damage than a paladin in an unhittable set (warrior shield block grants 2xSBV, 5% SBR talented allows for more SBV gearing). If you have two add tanks, a paladin will take less damage than a warrior (paladin can forgo SBR for SBV).
Last edited by fuzzygeek on Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anub 25 Heroic

Postby Belloc » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:33 pm

There are some extremes to consider when making your decision: One paladin block tank is going to take a lot of damage while tanking all four adds, even in an unhittable set. Two paladin tanks on two patches are going to take little-to-no physical damage if geared for block value (unhittable is not required or desired in this situation).

So, you have a choice: Heal a single tank taking a lot of damage, or heal two tanks only taking important damage from Leeching Swarm.

I, literally, could probably make it through most of phase 3 without healing if it weren't for the Leeching Swarm (and occasional Penetrating Cold). Two tanks allows extreme flexibility with gearing, whereas one tank (or two tanks on one patch) requires an unhittable set and extra healing (four adds stacked that close = an attack every 0.3 seconds, meaning each tank is getting attacked about 6 times per second).

Unhittable sets don't have as much block value, so you're letting 1k+ unmitigated damage get through on every blocked attack. That damage is multiplied by the debuff stacks that you have. Let's assume that 3-4 attacks get through -- now each paladin add tank is taking about 10k damage per second, as opposed to... 0 through 1000.

Add leeching swarm and the occasional penetrating cold and it becomes incredibly obvious why you would never use two unhittable tanks on one frost patch. It's slightly less obvious, but you should also avoid using a single unhittable paladin tank -- it's just so much more safe to use two add tanks on two frost patches.

Obviously, you need to use whichever strategy plays to your raid strengths. If your DPS is strong and you can manage the Hand of Protections (3 paladins, one speccing for improved) or external cooldowns (pain suppression and hand of sacrifice can allow a person to survive, with healing, the spikes for an extended duration), then you should definitely use the two add tanks on two frost patches strategy. If your DPS is weak, then you should use the solo-warrior (or paladin if absolutely necessary) strategy. If your dps is weak, HoPs are limited, and your healers are weak... you should improve your play before coming back to Anub.


All the strats work, just find whichever one makes more sense. Personally, I'll never suggest anything other than two add tanks. I like taking little-to-no damage from adds.
Last edited by Belloc on Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anub 25 Heroic

Postby Joanadark » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:48 pm

questions like this belong in the appropriate thread for the encounter, not in a new thread.
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Re: Anub 25 Heroic

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:01 pm

Belloc wrote:There are some extremes to consider when making your decision: One paladin block tank is going to take a lot of damage while tanking all four adds, even in an unhittable set. Two paladin tanks on two patches are going to take little-to-no physical damage if geared for block value (unhittable is not required or desired in this situation).


This is why I'm thinking of bringing my unhittable warrior in to single tank adds. We don't have a 2nd paladin tank available (only other paladin tanks are 2 well geared alts/specs whose mains are non-trivial members of our healing corps), so if we go 2 add tanks it'll be paladin/warrior, sadly.

Although now that I think about it, swapping in my warrior may not be an option, as we have 1 ret 1 holy 1 prot, so if I swap we're down to 2 HoPs, which napkin math shows to be insufficient.

I don't mind 2-tanking as it makes the fight pretty much trivial on my end. Solo tanking is considerably more stressful (and interesting), but quite probably not worth the trade-off, if we can get positioning for aoe/splash correct (only tried two pulls with 2 tanks; will have to try more next raid).
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Re: Anub 25 Heroic

Postby Araiken » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:13 pm

Joanadark wrote:questions like this belong in the appropriate thread for the encounter, not in a new thread.


My bad.
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Re: Anub 25 Heroic

Postby Araiken » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:18 pm

Initially myself and a warrior were tanking them 12 feet apart but the DPS was having trouble AOEing them down so they had us stack on one patch and healing was was fine. Idk how healing will be once we get more time into p3 on us. Maybe until the 30% we can stack the adds so they down fast enough then below 30% have them the 12 feet apart. Suggestions/Ideas?
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Re: Anub 25 Heroic

Postby Belloc » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:48 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Belloc wrote:There are some extremes to consider when making your decision: One paladin block tank is going to take a lot of damage while tanking all four adds, even in an unhittable set. Two paladin tanks on two patches are going to take little-to-no physical damage if geared for block value (unhittable is not required or desired in this situation).


This is why I'm thinking of bringing my unhittable warrior in to single tank adds. We don't have a 2nd paladin tank available (only other paladin tanks are 2 well geared alts/specs whose mains are non-trivial members of our healing corps), so if we go 2 add tanks it'll be paladin/warrior, sadly.

Although now that I think about it, swapping in my warrior may not be an option, as we have 1 ret 1 holy 1 prot, so if I swap we're down to 2 HoPs, which napkin math shows to be insufficient.

I don't mind 2-tanking as it makes the fight pretty much trivial on my end. Solo tanking is considerably more stressful (and interesting), but quite probably not worth the trade-off, if we can get positioning for aoe/splash correct (only tried two pulls with 2 tanks; will have to try more next raid).

2 HoPs isn't impossible to work with. We had a DK get targeted for the first and third fixate in a phase. I believe we made a mistake on the second fixate, so we had a lot more time than usual until Anub emerged. We started shouting on vent (lol), external cooldowns went flying, and the DK didn't come anywhere near dying. Oh, he took quite a bit of damage, but he was perfectly healable.

Long story short, 2 HoPs, especially if talented, will work. Just have your priests/paladins use their external cooldowns (pain suppression, hand of sacrifice), as well as whatever personal cooldowns the fixate target might have (dispersion, shield wall, divine protection, etc). It might seem annoying to have to add this to your strategy, but you had to learn the rest of the stuff anyway, so why not?
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Re: Anub 25 Heroic

Postby Belloc » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:51 pm

Araiken wrote:Initially myself and a warrior were tanking them 12 feet apart but the DPS was having trouble AOEing them down so they had us stack on one patch and healing was was fine. Idk how healing will be once we get more time into p3 on us. Maybe until the 30% we can stack the adds so they down fast enough then below 30% have them the 12 feet apart. Suggestions/Ideas?

If you're having trouble killing the adds when they're 12 feet apart in phase 1, the problem will be even worse in phase 3. Either get used to it now, or figure something else out.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Anub'arak

Postby Gaffer » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:55 am

Has anyone else had issues with Leeching Swarm?

[19:31:11.584] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Yawning 3434 (R: 382)
[19:31:12.486] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Yawning 3010 (R: 752)
[19:31:13.364] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Yawning 2328 (O: 140, R: 617)


This is a melee DPS going from ~9k hp to dead taking only three ticks of Leeching Swarm. Though we did hit enrage on this attempt (...) his death comes well before it. (WoL)
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Re: [25 Heroic] Anub'arak

Postby Belloc » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:16 am

Gaffer wrote:Has anyone else had issues with Leeching Swarm?

[19:31:11.584] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Yawning 3434 (R: 382)
[19:31:12.486] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Yawning 3010 (R: 752)
[19:31:13.364] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Yawning 2328 (O: 140, R: 617)


This is a melee DPS going from ~9k hp to dead taking only three ticks of Leeching Swarm. Though we did hit enrage on this attempt (...) his death comes well before it. (WoL)

It happens more often than you'd think.

A better question is: Where was the judgement of light heal?
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Re: [25 Heroic] Anub'arak

Postby Joanadark » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:14 pm

Gaffer wrote:Has anyone else had issues with Leeching Swarm?

[19:31:11.584] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Yawning 3434 (R: 382)
[19:31:12.486] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Yawning 3010 (R: 752)
[19:31:13.364] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Yawning 2328 (O: 140, R: 617)


This is a melee DPS going from ~9k hp to dead taking only three ticks of Leeching Swarm. Though we did hit enrage on this attempt (...) his death comes well before it. (WoL)


[19:31:12.893] Yawning's Survival Instincts fades

This is why he died. The dummy used Last Stand, it expired, and Leeching Swarm tick about 0.5 seconds later didn't recalculate in time because of lag and ticked like he still had the massively increased health, killing him.

Edit: I am also almost certain that you guys didn't have Nature Totem/Aspect up, or people would have been resisting more.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Anub'arak

Postby Treck » Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:41 pm

We had a restoshaman continiously dying over and over and over again about 30sec into P3.
Turns out he had some +hp talent or smth triggering when he goes low.
Damn i hate ppl who just dies and goes "smth killed me" without even thinking of what...
We also had a fun whipe with the warrior forgetting to renew commanding.
Taking a killing blow from leeching hitting for around 1k means a buff was lost.
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