Icecrown Radiance

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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Wrathy » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:18 pm

Elsie wrote:
What I don't understand is why they just didn't retool the avoidance DR formula. This would, in my opinion, answer everyones problems. First, it would negate the need for a zone wide debuf for the second expansion in a row. Secondly, it would reward progression guilds, as it rewards skill over gear when it comes to pushing "progression".

If they reworked the formula they would have to rebalance all the previous content for people who just started playing. Instances like 5-mans and naxx were (poorly) balanced with the gear of the time in mind. If you drastically change the formula to further penalize avoidance you could end up with nasty scenarios of a new player decked out in blues and getting owned in heroics.


That is why i included my rationale behind this movement. Now I assume this is the sole reason that blizzard did not do this, and my point of view is probably skewed towards the minority of the game, but as I mentioned in my quote below, this is something that would reward skill over gear.

Wrathy wrote:Secondly, it would reward progression guilds, as it rewards skill over gear when it comes to pushing "progression". What I mean by this is that, currently, a pug can kill non hard mode end game. If the DR was reactive to the gear levels of the progression guilds, you couldn't just out gear an instance, execution would once again be the only answer to progression.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby hoho » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:15 am

Nadir wrote:Alternatively they can have bosses increase in expertise and hit as we move up through T11 to T14. This would basically be Icewell Radiance by a different name.
GC has mentioned that they'll probably add something just like that. E.g bosses will show their basic stats on tooltip (spell/melee miss%, expertise, armor, ...). It'll be just like radiance but per-boss/tier and not in as big steps.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Flex » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:19 am

Worldie wrote:The final tuning is pretty obvious, ICC 10 normal will be tuned for 232 gear


I hope. My personal opinion had Ulduar 10 tuned more towards 213+ than 200 at launch.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby masterpoobaa » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:38 pm

From what ive read icecrown 5 heroic was to be 232.
Though that does sound a little high.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Kelaan » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:33 pm

Chasey wrote:I don't get this, I've been trying to wrap my brain around this for 2 days now. Why would they lop dodge by 20% and itemize our T10 gear and libram with +dodge bonuses?
Makes no sense to me.


I see it as a way to ensure that we are NOT deliberately skipping dodge rating. They want our effective dodge rating in IC to be ~5-8% or something, not -12% (if we had 8% outside of the zone).
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Wrathy » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:15 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Chasey wrote:I don't get this, I've been trying to wrap my brain around this for 2 days now. Why would they lop dodge by 20% and itemize our T10 gear and libram with +dodge bonuses?
Makes no sense to me.


I see it as a way to ensure that we are NOT deliberately skipping dodge rating. They want our effective dodge rating in IC to be ~5-8% or something, not -12% (if we had 8% outside of the zone).


Really what it comes down to is the fact that they cannot touch parry for most tanks, as the diminishing returns are much harsher and we can avoid parry to the point where we would have 0 parry after Chill of the Throne. It is completely possible to gear yourself to have less than 20% parry, and as a result increasing your avoidance based on gear itemization past the flat Chill of the Throne adjustment.

For example, If you geared yourself with no items that had parry as the main avoidance statistic, you can effectively get to around 28% dodge and 18% parry unbuffed. This means that you are gaining 2 full percent avoidance by selecting parry as your target for reduction.

Also it is more important to understand that parry is a threat mechanic, albeit a small one, and because of this suffers from harsher DR. Since a significant amount of our threat is based off of mechanics outside of parry hasting, we would not see much of a difference, although a significant amount of our damage comes from melee white damage. However the other tanking classes are not as fortunate.

Even if you deliberately skip dodge rating, if you walk into ICC with BiS, you will still be sitting at 28% dodge from gear alone, assuming that you socket and enchant for pure stamina. This ensures that you are still at 40%+ avoidance once raid buffed. This is a reduction in your ability to avoid damage, however it is nothing that will make or break your survival.

To sum it up, Fully raid buffed:

If Chill of the throne was Parry - we would have 43.1% avoidance in ICC

If Chill of the throne was Dodge - we would have 41.07% avoidance in ICC


We could gain a full two percent avoidance with out even deviating from our gearing philosophy and losing less than 200 stamina from side grade gear choices. We could continue gearing with our current stamina philosophy, skip any gear that has parry on it, and we would be able to cheat the system out of some avoidance. By making it dodge, they are ensuring that the full 20% is always taken into account. Any tank that walks into ICC with less than 20% dodge (assuming that they are not getting 20% off of their gear) is severely under geared for the instance and will not be able to survive the progression encounters.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Iselian » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:56 pm

Also, making it parry would give druids an unfair advantage, as they would be untouched. Dodge is the universal avoidance stat; all tanks use it.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Serv » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:36 am

except for some PuG Raids who want purples, I doubt there will be any tank with less then 20% dodge. Btw: Something i didn't read anywhere - will Icecrown Radiance also afflict the 5-man heroic instance? If so, we will be seeing a lot of QQ on the Blizz boards.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Trase » Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:15 am

Serv wrote:except for some PuG Raids who want purples, I doubt there will be any tank with less then 20% dodge. Btw: Something i didn't read anywhere - will Icecrown Radiance also afflict the 5-man heroic instance? If so, we will be seeing a lot of QQ on the Blizz boards.


It will just affect the enemy creatures in the Icecrown Citadel raid zone, or more specifically, you'll get a debuff called Chill of the Throne as soon as you zone into ICC proper which will reduce your dodge by 20%.

EDIT: Edited for clarity!
Last edited by Trase on Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Steve » Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:38 pm

It would not be hard to create a DR formula curve that becomes increasingly punishing.

The problem with the DR curve they chose is that it only matched the value of avoidance in terms of TTL and damage avoided. They should have chosen a DR curve that effectively implemented a cap in practice. Avoidance ratings should have become less and less attractive once they hit some percentage.

The other design issue they had with avoidance is they had 3 stats that predominantly did the exact same thing -- miss, parry, dodge. I understand the subtle differences, but it's probably bad design to have those 3 stats.

Miss is effectively gone in the next expansion, but they should do something to consolidate parry and dodge.

My other thought is that block value/rating is going to be less bad in a lower avoidance environment, but I don't think we're going to get low enough for it to be better. At roughly 40% avoidance though, things are going to be reasonably close that smoothing things out with high block value might be worthwhile -- especially now that the block rating won't be useless.

Of course relative to stamina, dodge/parry/block are all sub par.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Kelaan » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:36 pm

Wrathy wrote:Even if you deliberately skip dodge rating, if you walk into ICC with BiS, you will still be sitting at 28% dodge from gear alone, assuming that you socket and enchant for pure stamina. This ensures that you are still at 40%+ avoidance once raid buffed. This is a reduction in your ability to avoid damage, however it is nothing that will make or break your survival.


Excellent points about the difference between Chill affecting dodge rather than parry. That said, I have to wonder: How many will be going into Icecrown with "Best in slot"? My own gear is very good, but I know that several of my pieces are NOT best in slot. Cloak, weapon, helm, hands ... those aren't even ilevel 245.

I expect (non-heroic) Icecrown will be balanced around one's gear being 232-245, even for 25-man teams: 10's will have farmed ToC to get mostly 232 gear (and tier pieces), and SOME will have hit heroic gear; most raid teams, though, will not have been able to do heroic modes in ToC (in 10 or 25 man flavors). Basically, I expect Icecrown (normal)'s gear expectations to be similar to what heroic ToC requires. If you have Best in Slot gear, more power to you, but I don't think Blizzard will be expecting that... though they likely WILL expect you to have Onyxia head rewards, and full Tier 9 of some variety, as a minumum.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Wrathy » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:54 am

I think the level of gear for people that will go straight into icecrown will be mixed, but due to the ability to pug 25 man ToTC, I am pretty confident that most guilds that have a shot at clearing it fast will be in at least full 245 gear. I will agree with you that I am also not any where near best in slot (as the tank drops for our guild have been non existent for anything but beasts and jaraxxus).

With that being said, I used BiS as the example because its the most likely gear set for the progression guilds that will need the theory crafting more than the rest of the world. The quicker you clear content, and the less gear you have gotten from said content, the more you are dependent on preparation, skill, and execution. This is why I chose the gear set I did. However, with that being said, most people should be walking into ICC with at least a comparable set of gear. Even though I do not have BiS, for the most part, I am only lacking the stamina it provides, and not the avoidance. I am at 42k, 28% dodge, and 23% parry at the moment, placing me only 4k away from the theoretical set. Now half of this is because I have not regemed for ICC yet.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Kelaan » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:56 am

True, but I don't really care what Ensidia (or any other extremely top-tier guild) is bringing to Icecrown. Many of them have been farming ToC with double raids (each half full of alts who pass on gear to mains), or at the leastbeen farming heroic modes for months longer than my guild has cleared normal ToC. I care about what more average guilds will be expected to bring to icecrown, as my raid team is more average than awesome. We have no 50k tanks (more like 40k), etc. I believe we've killed heroic Beasts, once. While MANY in our raid have 4x T9, or even mostly 245's, the whole raid isn't there yet.

You mentioned regemming for Icecrown. How do you plan to regem? Is Chill going to affect that?
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Meyrinn » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:37 pm

Elsie wrote:
What I don't understand is why they just didn't retool the avoidance DR formula. This would, in my opinion, answer everyones problems. First, it would negate the need for a zone wide debuf for the second expansion in a row. Secondly, it would reward progression guilds, as it rewards skill over gear when it comes to pushing "progression".

If they reworked the formula they would have to rebalance all the previous content for people who just started playing. Instances like 5-mans and naxx were (poorly) balanced with the gear of the time in mind. If you drastically change the formula to further penalize avoidance you could end up with nasty scenarios of a new player decked out in blues and getting owned in heroics.


The formulas are curves. They can easily be reworked so that there is a cross over point where new formula = old formula. You can lower the cost per point of pre DR avoidance making the initial part of the curve steeper then make it diminish faster so the therohetical max avoidance is lower. What this will do is raise the avoidance of people under the cross over point, and lower the avoidance of people over it while still penalizing the high values more.
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Re: Icecrown Radiance

Postby Meyrinn » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:46 pm

Kelaan wrote:True, but I don't really care what Ensidia (or any other extremely top-tier guild) is bringing to Icecrown. Many of them have been farming ToC with double raids (each half full of alts who pass on gear to mains), or at the leastbeen farming heroic modes for months longer than my guild has cleared normal ToC. I care about what more average guilds will be expected to bring to icecrown, as my raid team is more average than awesome. We have no 50k tanks (more like 40k), etc. I believe we've killed heroic Beasts, once. While MANY in our raid have 4x T9, or even mostly 245's, the whole raid isn't there yet.

You mentioned regemming for Icecrown. How do you plan to regem? Is Chill going to affect that?


50K should be reachable with just 25 normal gear. A fully non hard mode Ulduar geared tank was around 42K, so a 40K is pretty poorly geared. ToGC25 geared tanks can push over 57K. But, yes the lesser progressed guilds will suffer more due to IC Radiance. But it won't be that hard to gear up as 10 man IC gear is better than 25 man ToC gear. The path is there, just its means going into 10 mans.
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