Righteous Fury threat generation bugged - confirmed

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby kalbear » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:07 am

I'm wondering if there was some kind of unmentioned nerf to threat output or damage output between the patches. I don't know of anything, but perhaps spelldamage's coefficients got tweaked or RF isn't working correctly. Or...hmm. Perhaps improved RF isn't working at all?
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Postby Comma » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:41 am

RF now costs double mana, thats all I know of.
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Postby Morpheren » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:00 am

I'm going to agree that early stuns cause problems. The OP mentioned S-priests, I always prefer that the DPS doesn't have the chance to stun on spell cast talent.

I'm kind of torn about the new BoJ gear, tons of dodge on the tankadin gear. I much would have preferred BR and maybe more stamina and maybe BV. Once your content reaches the need for proactive vs reactive healing, I feel dodge looses alot of value.
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Postby Palafix » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:28 am

Regardless of whether imp RF was/is actually working or not doesn't matter because Omen and KTM both accurately calculate threat generated while imp. RF is active, and I was noticing the low threat generation as measured from KTM.
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Postby Gerilith » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:17 am

For Heroics, I normally sacrifice critimmunity and most of my avoidance because I would have to drink more than to tank. If you are overgeared, your TPS sucks. Very old tanking lore...
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:09 am

Gerilith wrote:For Heroics, I normally sacrifice critimmunity and most of my avoidance because I would have to drink more than to tank. If you are overgeared, your TPS sucks. Very old tanking lore...


I'd rather be a bad boy and aggro another group or turn my back to the mobs to get some damage input.
Or do it with healing pants. It's now better with that 30% +healing being spell damages.

Edit:
Well, it's a really good idea as the T2 looking like pant would be a good visual choice for tanking.
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Postby Palafix » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:37 pm

This isn't just about heroics. This is in 10-mans as well, and phase 2 of Zul'jin gives me plenty of mana back, I'm certainly not mana starved on that phase, however I was generating only about 600 tps during that phase, with about 350 spell damage and no JotC. I just feel that I should be generating at least 700 if not more on that kind of encounter.
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Postby Thundaar » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:42 pm

Real Pally tanks dont reduce dodge rating when the instance is driving them mana starved, they increase the size of the pull :D

In all honesty it works ... and its a key reason Warrios a bit peaved at us at times. Your mana bar doubles as a measuring tool of how often you're getting healed and so it not nly means your not getting hit often ... but it means your healer is doing mostly nothing and can easily keep up with a bit more punishment.

I run heroics with no CCs and I'm barely scratching into T5 gear (mostly crafting gear and a trinket; the rest is pre SSC gear). As an example in the opening room of Mech I pull the three human mobs and the patrolling sentry robot in one pull becuase quite frankily they dont hit hard enough alone. If a person not used tomy pulling style tries to trap/cc one ill will break it then explain to them afte the pull that all they are doing is adding downtime as I mana starve.

It takes getting used to as it seems paladin tanks are still very rare. But once people understand the mechanics of it many times they join in the fun. More mobs I take the more likely my downtime hits zero but then I have haler downtime .... we'll discuss openly optimum pull sizes to make runs as quick as possible... and when badge farming it means one team can get a heroic down in under 30minutes start to finish.

As for threat holding issues .... I'm at a loss there my friend. by your numbers you should hold aggro insanely well. Omen doens't seem to hold much "history" (unless i dont know the feature) so I tend to go bac to recount to check against that as well. The wierd part is: Omen and Recount regualrly have a discrepency of roughly 200TPS when i check. I make a mental note to use hte more conservative number typically (omen) but still rely on recount to give me a nice graph of the spikes anddips as well as where my threat is comming from.

I highly reocmend any tank do this as well .... as I share the opinins of some of the other posters who say these threat meters can be fishy at times.
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:05 pm

Girard wrote:
Afraithe wrote:Agravaine is right on the spot, stuns can quite quickly screw up a pull, I try not to bring any rogues to heroics if I don't have to, and if I do, I tell them to stun the mob after he is at 50%.


QFT.

Our raid leader actually told our rogues and our DPS warrior "not to open with stuns" if I was tanking: my threat is reflective. I don't get hits, I don't make threat.... and they get aggro and splatted.



Sometime the issue is that they poll the mob off you and not only you miss the holy shield but also consecration.
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Postby Katamai » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:43 am

Small update:

I've shuffled my gear a bit, using 4/5 T5 (chest and boots from badges vendor), Hammer of Judgment and switched Moroes' pocket watch for Figurine of the Collosus and while i've noticed some improvement, my threat is still far, far from what it used to be in gear that is a few orders of magnitude crappier than what i have now.

With RF up, HW pull, max rank consecration and HS max rank, in MH on trash pulls i am barely generating 2-2.5K tps, going up to 4K with AW up. My tps output on Morogrim has gone down from around 4-6K tps to 2-4K with around 600 spell dmg which is mind boggling.

I have no idea what's going on but something is definitely wrong. I've also noticed on trash pack before Keal that my tps can vary from 700-800 tps down to 250-350 when i am solo-tanking the Blood Knights.

Few nights i lost agro even though my mob was 2nd on the kill list and i had AW popped up when rogues started nuking which never happened before. I talked to a GM but got the usual crap.

I'm gonna submit a bug report but atm i'm trying to compile some solid numbers (even though i'm not really into theorycraft).

EDIT: I just re-read some posts and wanted to clear things up:

I've been tanking for a long while now (even before TBC on my old pally) so i know my rotations very well and never had probs before. 2nd, if it was just Omen/KTM i wouldn't worry but when a T4 geared rogue/lock who is watching their aggro pulls a mob off me when i am fully nuking with 500-550 spell dmg and am not mana starved at that point, it gives me a reason to worry. I used to grab full avoidance/stam gear and keep SD to my weapon only, but right now i am pumping my SD (even using the Flask of Supreme power over the Fort one) just so i wouldn't lose aggro and get people killed.

I use stam/SD gems, i use oils and play with my rotations but nothing seems to be helping too much. And again, yes, i've respecced a few times to make sure Imp RF was not bugged, i'm making sure it's up and i burn mana like crazy but usually my threat can't go over 700 tps when being the MT/solo tank with no stuns on the mob.
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Postby Belarkan » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:38 am

Katamai wrote:With RF up, HW pull, max rank consecration and HS max rank, in MH on trash pulls i am barely generating 2-2.5K tps, going up to 4K with AW up. My tps output on Morogrim has gone down from around 4-6K tps to 2-4K with around 600 spell dmg which is mind boggling.


Value on trashes are overrated.
you may generate 4K threat but this should be divided by the number of mobs.
With 400 SD, I hardly reach the 1K TPS more than 10 seconds on a heroic boss that is just stand and fight.

Have you considered that the values you get are due to a newer version of your threat meter ?
My feeling is Omen seems to make the difference between two trashes with the same name which wasn't the case a couple of time ago.
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Postby Katamai » Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:21 am

Belarkan wrote:Value on trashes are overrated.
you may generate 4K threat but this should be divided by the number of mobs.
With 400 SD, I hardly reach the 1K TPS more than 10 seconds on a heroic boss that is just stand and fight.

Have you considered that the values you get are due to a newer version of your threat meter ?
My feeling is Omen seems to make the difference between two trashes with the same name which wasn't the case a couple of time ago.


I am aware of that and as i said, if it was just the meters, i would fine with it. But when mobs start running around and require taunting, then it's a problem.

Another interesting thing is that warriors now do more threat than me on single targets even though i pull with AS and have them hitting me with HS up while druids as always rule the tps on single target tanking.

It seems to me (at least i my case) that with the tps/buff to Devastate we have lost our absolute lead in tps over warriors we had prior to 2.3
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Postby FalseHope » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:15 am

I have noticed this problem as well, did VR last night for the first time in a great while (my guild always does him when im not around), seldom peaked past 1k tps even spamming hammer of wrath. Last time I did him I easily sustained 1.1-1.2k by stacking SoV with avenging wrath on, this time around I did the exact same thing with far more dissapointing results. My avoidance stats have changed very little, while I have gained about 250 more spell damage, I was geared / buffed to just short of 700 spell damage for the fight.

EDIT: Odd, it suddenly strikes me that comparing the last time I did VR with this time, I lost about 30% threat (and no I didn't have salv on me.)
Last edited by FalseHope on Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Rainge » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:42 am

Didn't notice it before this past week, but my TPS has been in the hole. I just assumed it was a bug in Omen/KTM, but I'm having trouble getting/holding aggro in situations where it used to be a gimme.

Could be gear changes though - my gear has improved a lot. I may need to revise my choices.
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Postby kalbear » Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:15 am

It seems to me (at least i my case) that with the tps/buff to Devastate we have lost our absolute lead in tps over warriors we had prior to 2.3
This is absolutely true; warriors are now the single target threat champions.
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