[ToGC 10] What to expect?

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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby fafhrd » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:05 am

Jaraxxus portal dps don't really need to be "ready to move at any moment for portals", the portals are on a completely fixed timer. They need to be ready to move as soon as this timer is up. If they're bad at watching their own timers, have someone responsible call it out on vent ~6s before. Have all of them make macros to /tar nether and /tar (whatever the volcano is called), since one the timer is up you can target and start DPSing them before their model even renders.

If you're not getting them down before 2 mistresses spawn but you can meet the DPS requirements for beasts, people just aren't switching to portals enough - start linking damage done to nether portal meters to point out that the people epeening over topping the fight's overall meter are doing shit for damage to the part of the fight that actually matters. Some classes do inherently suck at DPSing something that dies as quickly as a portal should, for them it's even more important that they save cooldowns (big ones like 2-5 minute cooldowns AND little ones like 5s cooldowns used in their normal rotation) for when the portal spawns.

Note that portals and volcanoes aren't just up to ranged to kill, melee will probably need to switch too. If you're not getting it down, even your interrupter should switch, Jaraxus fireballing the tank if he doesn't interrupt himself isn't as bad as 2 mistresses.
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:34 pm

Notice that portals pretty much always spawn in the same position, which is related to where Jaraxxus is facing.
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby Agonized » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:53 pm

vegardhv wrote:
I have seal of command talented, might try use that a little.

edit: key seems to get dps to down those portals/volcanos faster. They should maybe apply a macro for quicker targeting (at least ranged).

Maybe OT, in this case me, doesn't have to gear that much for stam - and more for threat? I just used my max stam gear for this one. But maybe a more threat-like set would be appropriate? We had a warrior tank on jaraxx. I was kind of nervous ahead of this, seeing he had only 33,5K hp, but he survived this very well, and I rarely saw his health drop very much (though we just got jarax down to 29 % on best attempt). I'm usually one of the last to die, but on this fight warrior was the last one.

Thanks all, for input.


It might sound crazy, but I solo tank Jarjar and the adds, my warrior partner swaps to his dps spec, should clear up any dps issues you may be having on the portals. We found it to be a heck of a lot easier this way, and keeps the boredom from settling in while tanking him.
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby Petrus » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:29 pm

If your tank has good enough gear (which you very probably do at this point), you can solotank Lord Jaraxxus. And you can really push yourself to solotank Twins (though it's a bit harder to manage two mobs and you have to communicate with your dps when one of them has opposite-color empowerment when you're not building tons of threat on their mob). We usually go like this:

NRB: 2 Tanks, 5 DPS, 3 Healers
Jaraxxus: 1 Tank, 6 DPS, 3 Healers
Faction Champs: 7 DPS, 3 Healers (1 tank goes DPS, I go holy, another healer goes dps)
Twins: 1 Tank, 6 DPS, 3 Healers
Anub'arak: 2 Tanks, 6 DPS, 2 Healers

A lot of that depends on gear. You can still do it with slightly different comps but with one less dps on a couple of fights there's a lot less room for error on portals/volcanoes/shields/anything else that requires burst dps in a short period of time.

Anub'arak also has the highest learning curve by FAR of any boss in the instance. If one of your tanks doesn't have a block set yet, start working on it. Run some Naxx25 and Uld25 to see if you can snag some of the bigger block pieces.
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby Belloc » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:55 pm

Petrus, I'm surprised you don't solo tank everything except anub at your gear level.
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:33 am

Belloc wrote:Petrus, I'm surprised you don't solo tank everything including anub at your gear level.

fixd*
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby Anorian » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:40 am

Worldie wrote:
Belloc wrote:Petrus, I'm surprised you don't solo tank everything including anub at your gear level.

fixd*


On normal i'd say thats very much possible, wouldnt wanna try it on hc though :shock:
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby hthomas13 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:16 am

Petrus wrote:If your tank has good enough gear (which you very probably do at this point), you can solotank Lord Jaraxxus. And you can really push yourself to solotank Twins (though it's a bit harder to manage two mobs and you have to communicate with your dps when one of them has opposite-color empowerment when you're not building tons of threat on their mob). We usually go like this:

NRB: 2 Tanks, 5 DPS, 3 Healers
Jaraxxus: 1 Tank, 6 DPS, 3 Healers
Faction Champs: 7 DPS, 3 Healers (1 tank goes DPS, I go holy, another healer goes dps)
Twins: 1 Tank, 6 DPS, 3 Healers
Anub'arak: 2 Tanks, 6 DPS, 2 Healers

A lot of that depends on gear. You can still do it with slightly different comps but with one less dps on a couple of fights there's a lot less room for error on portals/volcanoes/shields/anything else that requires burst dps in a short period of time.

Anub'arak also has the highest learning curve by FAR of any boss in the instance. If one of your tanks doesn't have a block set yet, start working on it. Run some Naxx25 and Uld25 to see if you can snag some of the bigger block pieces.


Do you think this is possible with a Druid tank for Twins and Jaraxxus? In my dps set I do around 5k dps which is quite respectable considering my ilvl 219 and badge gear, on the other hand, my druid does near nothing (probably lower than while tanking)
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby Petrus » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:55 am

I wouldn't try it on Jaraxxus - it can get tough for other classes to pick up multiple adds at a time due to lack of ranged/singletarget attacks. You also aren't penalized too greatly there by not killing him in a certain amount of time - if you can survive/kill one portal/volcano set and keep the raid alive, chances are that you can survive the whole encounter and the whole thing is just a race to see how long your raid goes before someone screws up.

Twins, however, is the one where rDPS is significant. If you can add a dps for Twins, I would do it. You may need to use some bigger CDs on the Twins' Pact (because the other twin increases its damage when one gets the buff. The biggest part, though, comes in killing the twins before they use the fifth ability, because that's the beginning of the cycle again and you don't know which heal/vortex it could be, but you know #4 and have good chances at knowing what 3 and 2 are.
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby hthomas13 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:16 am

And for this Twins strat I assume that all DPS is on one target besides when a Pact is on the other, Poping heroism when that occurs? I have always done a 2 tank strat because normal modes = cake walk
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby deigo » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:13 am

No offense to the other tanks but I see no reason to solo tank anything in Togc. Maybe in my case we dont need the extra dps so we do it the safe way, I think we are on our 3rd or 4th "A Tribute to Insanity". And I dont use my block set on Anub adds on 10 heroic, if ur healers are half way geared for that place its not hard to keep u up maybe P3 damage but thats what cds are for. I would recommend that u do but its not necessary.

Anyway i made some videos for just this vary reason. They suck and are not "tankspot" quality videos (nor is the commentary for that matter). But it might help, if it does then good, if not then oh well. But unlike tank spots vids i try to gear them toward tanking from a paladin point of view, but if u want better encounter info on heroic abilities i would suggest other videos.

Beast http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPwp9TDxoTk

Jeraxxus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8dTkKTjgQY

Twins http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx6SGs32I8c F me spelled the name wrong on the vid sorry.

Anub http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZCWun5JlY0 I'll make a new one with some commentary on it if people want. I was tired and didnt feel like talking.

Hope it helps GL.
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby Belloc » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:30 am

Deigo wrote:No offense to the other tanks but I see no reason to solo tank anything in Togc. Maybe in my case we dont need the extra dps so we do it the safe way, I think we are on our 3rd or 4th "A Tribute to Insanity". And I dont use my block set on Anub adds on 10 heroic, if ur healers are half way geared for that place its not hard to keep u up maybe P3 damage but thats what cds are for. I would recommend that u do but its not necessary.

Anyway i made some videos for just this vary reason. They suck and are not "tankspot" quality videos (nor is the commentary for that matter). But it might help, if it does then good, if not then oh well. But unlike tank spots vids i try to gear them toward tanking from a paladin point of view, but if u want better encounter info on heroic abilities i would suggest other videos.

Beast http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPwp9TDxoTk

Jeraxxus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8dTkKTjgQY

Twins http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx6SGs32I8c F me spelled the name wrong on the vid sorry.

Anub http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZCWun5JlY0 I'll make a new one with some commentary on it if people want. I was tired and didnt feel like talking.

Hope it helps GL.


No reason? Burning through bosses faster means that there is less time in which to make mistakes. The longer a fight lasts, the more mistakes are made -- this is a simple fact.

Now, I can see the point when it comes to beasts. Solo-tanking beasts carries with it a level of danger. Regardless, I've solo-tanked beast ever since our first or second kill (so, the 2nd time we ran ToGC-10) and I've yet to die because of it. Even when we two-healed the fight last week.

As far as Jaraxxus goes, there's no reason to ever use two tanks. You'd be better off adding a healer or DPS. The dangerous parts of this fight are the raid damage and the adds. Having an extra tank helps with neither of those, while having an extra DPS/healer helps with both.

The only reason to ever use two tanks on Twins is to allow for DPS to be split between the targets, which can be nice, but is entirely unnecessary. Once again, you'd be better off with an extra healer.

Anub, of course, requires two tanks. I, too, have never used my block set on heroic Anub-10.
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby deigo » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:33 pm

Jaraxxus I might... MIGHT see the reason to one tank that. But as u pointed out it is nice to have add dps. But I can see it being done. Infernals are pretty much 3 shot by range dps. But as long as the mistress would die before the infernal spawn I could see that working. And adding an extra healer on this fight wont make it go faster or get portals down faster. 4 healers on this fight is overkill. Same with twins. 4 healers wont speed the fight along only an extra dps. So u cant "burn through bosses" much faster then anyone with 3 healers and 2 tanks could.

Beast - You have to explain to me how u solo tank that. How many stacks is that? Cause if the tool tip on MMO is right its 3500 to 4500 per stack every 2 seconds. And granted u would have 1 more dps so u would kill him faster but only by 1 MAYBE 2 impales? But i'll give u the benefit of the doubt and u kill him 2 impales faster then we do. Thats 7 stacks or 24,500 to 31,500 every 2 seconds. Impale its self hits every 10 seconds for ~15,000 unavoidable and last the staggering stomp for ~8,500 every 20 seconds also unavoidable (might be off about its cool down). That just seems like a lot of unavoidable damage and then if u throw in RNG melee swings. Only thing I think u might do is a quick BoP/DP then a cancel macro. But I doubt it that seems vary risky. And I dont know if this happens every time or was a glitch, but if Gormock dies before all 4 snobolds are out then dont the remaining adds all drop at the same time. If this is true how would u deal with it. And I see soloing the worms because the one not moving does not melee but how do u deal with the acid clowns? I assume u would have to tank them pretty close to each other. And if they are seems like melee might get into danger with standing in it. Icehowl is obviously one tankable.

Here is my point. While learning the fight u are most likely going to use 2 tanks for the same reason we still use 2 tanks. Its for raid wipe insurance. Why risk a wipe on an easy fight on farm and ruin a 50 attempt run to something like lag, disconnections, or just bad random number generator. All of which are factors outside of our control no matter how good we think we are.

Not to lie i would love to try it. I mean i was the guy that tried (key word tried) to solo heal naxx 10 when naxx was end game.
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby Belloc » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:14 pm

Beasts solo tanking has been covered in other threads, but it's as simple as: Take 6-7 stacks of impale, taunt the boss (hand of reckoning) and then BoP yourself and remove the BoP buff. The best way to do this is by having a macro that casts BoP and removes the buff and just spamming the macro. You'll lose the BoP instantly, lose the impale stacks, and you won't lose aggro since you taunted the boss and he's fixated on you for 3 seconds.

I perform this technique when I have reached 7 impale stacks. With our current dps, I'm left with 2 stacks when we hit worms, but I have had as many as 3-4 stacks when we were learning. This damage shouldn't be particularly difficult for the healers to manage. A ranged DPS tanks the stationary worm.

Also, before reaching 7 stacks, it helps to have survival cooldowns used on you. I tend to use my glyphed hand of salvation at 5-6 stacks and I usually ask for a pain suppression. Again, those are mainly used when learning. A more advanced version of this technique is to taunt and BoP immediately before an impale occurs and then canceling the BoP before the fixate ends. You skip a full impale by doing this.


Extra DPS on Jaraxxus = portals dead faster, Mistresses dead faster, Infernals dead faster... which means less damage on the raid, less interrupts on our healers, and less time to potentially make mistakes. A paladin tanking Jaraxxus is usually a very bored paladin... All I do on 25-man heroic is sit there and cleanse the occasional fireball DoT off myself -- it sucks. 10-man heroic gives you a chance to actually enjoy tanking the fight :P


Again, two tanks is perfectly viable (it's the obviously intended composition for Beasts, Jaraxxus, Twins, and Anub), but going from 5 to 6 DPS can make a HUGE difference (not only are you adding another DPS, but you're adding all the buffs and debuffs that the player would bring). I definitely do not recommend solo-tanking Beasts unless you have mostly 245 gear and have worked out most of the kinks in your strategy.
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Re: [ToGC 10] What to expect?

Postby Meloree » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:21 pm

We've always just taken 2 tanks, 3 healers, and 5 dps to the instance. Given that all we're chasing is cloak drops, it's safer, for us, to have coverage. Can it be done with less? Yes. Does more dps generally equal easier fights? Yes, but only when all other things are equal. More dps doesn't make for easier fights if you're dramatically increasing risk factors elsewhere. Would I 2-heal/solotank the instance if a single wipe didn't ruin our entire purpose for being there? Yes. Because it would be fun... yet another reason to hate ToGC's attempts-limited model.

That said, a lot depends on raid comp. We always went the safe route because we could. If you can't, you can't, play to your strengths. If you have a single very strong tank, by all means, trade a tank for a dps. If you have 2 extremely strong healers, by all means go with 2 healers. It increases the risk factor, but if your dps is marginal for the instance, that might be what you need to do.
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