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Agility gems ever worth it?

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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby McSloane » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:31 am

Unless you have a lot more parry on gear than I do, dodge will still give you more avoidance point-for-point. The rule of thumb is that:

(character_sheet_dodge_% - 10) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 10) = 1.88


exactly, and that analysis actually helped me make my decision. Here is my armory http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draka&n=Sloane

The other quote on the dodge/parry tipping point is that at 700 dodge rating, plus or minus, start thinking about parry. My character sheet dodge is at 421, add in the libram and its at 621, and that is before raid buffs. My Raid Buffed Dodge is at 29%, Raid Buffed Parry stays the same.

So the point at which the ratio tips is my libram of Defiance proc. With that proc up, I gain 5% dodge, so I am at (34-10) / (21-10) or 24/11 which is 2.18. Unless I shouldnt do the ratio math above with raid buffs, I'm at a spot where where parry is better, and why i re-gemmed. This also doesnt factor in any on-use trinket.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:59 am

You have FAR better tanking gear than my progression set, yet I have 29% unbuffed dodge, and 20% unbuffed parry. I'm not sure why I have such a huge difference from you in those two areas.

Though, you do have 5000 more unbuffed health than I do, I refuse to believe I gained 7% dodge on you, unbuffed and without trinket procs, simply by gemming....not to mention some pieces I gemmed specifically for parry....


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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:00 am

McSloane wrote:My Raid Buffed Dodge is at 29%, Raid Buffed Parry stays the same.
The point at which the ratio tips is my libram of Defiance proc. With that proc up, I gain 5% dodge, so I am at (34-10) / (21-10) or 24/11 which is 2.18. Unless I shouldnt do the ratio math above with raid buffs, I'm at a spot where where parry is better, and why i re-gemmed. This also doesnt factor in any on-use trinket.

Your character sheet shows 23.74% dodge, which is consistent with what I get from avoid_dr using the gear you logged out in:
3.49430 base dodge + 1.5364% from your 92 base agility + 5% from Anticipation = 10.0307% from non-DR sources
avoid_dr gives me 13.7075 from your gear (421 dodge rating, 421 parry rating, 702 defense rating, and 32 agi)
10.0307% + 13.7075% = 23.7382, or 23.74%.

You should get 3.0235% dodge from raid buffs, which should put you at 26.76%
(avoid_dr(421,421,702,124-92+253) gives 16.7310%, plus 10.0307 to get 26.76%).

Adding in the Libram proc should give you another 2.91% avoidance
(avoid_dr(421+200,421,702,124-92+253)=19.6417%, plus 10.0307 to get 29.67%).

So unless I've screwed something up here (which would have to be by excluding some sort of raid buff, since avoid_dr calculates your unbuffed DR contribution exactly, down to the 2 decimal places of accuracy that the armory gives us), your ratio would look like this:
(29.67-10)/(21.75-10)=1.6740, which means you still want to gem dodge.

If you really do have a gear set that gets you up to 32+% dodge (which is the breakpoint for 21.75% parry, 10+(21.75-10)*1.88 = 32.09%), then yeah, parry gems are the right choice.


Just to check these numbers, let's make sure the math works out for my armory. I have 802 defense rating, 549 dodge rating, and 309 parry rating, and 84 extra agility from items.

Since humans only have 90 base agility, my base dodge percent should be:
3.49430 base dodge + 1.5030% from 90 base agility + 5% from Anticipation =9.9973%

plugging my ratings and agility into avoid_dr gives me
avoid_dr(549,309,802,84)=16.9446%
16.9446+9.9973=26.9419, or 26.94%, in perfect agreement with my armory. So we trust that I'm doing the base math correctly.

Raid buffs will give me 253 agility, or 2.7711% dodge, bringing me up to 29.7129%
The libram proc will give me another 200 dodge rating, or 2.6769% dodge, bringing me up to 32.3899% dodge.

My character sheet shows 20.77% parry rating, so my ratio would be:
(32.39 - 10) / (20.77 - 10) = 2.0789.
So apparently I should be gemming parry now. Good to know (haven't checked this in a while).
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby McSloane » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:07 am

Thanks Theck;

Yes i just replaced my wrists, and normally wear Leviathon's Coil, which along with agi/stam food had me up to that number, but I appreciate the analysis on dodge and expertise.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Griffith » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:42 pm

theckhd wrote:
Awyndel wrote:Kind of off topic here, but I just remembered I'm using an updated version of the armor vs stamina formula now wich takes toughness and kings/talents into account. I was just recalling how this whole agility gem discussion brought you to dig up that formula in the first place. Might help assess the value of armor ( on gear ) better, wich can obviously be used on this topic.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4152 ... amina.html


So for paladins, the formula should be
Code: Select all
           12.54(K+A/1.1)                     
1 stamina: ------- points of armour
              H

So at my gear level, estimating my buffed HP at 45k since I can't remember what it is:
12.54*(16635+29009/1.1)/45000 = 11.9846, or roughly 1 stam = 12 armor.

In any event, that doesn't change the code I wrote, since it didn't use that formula at all. The factor of 1.1 does though (again, makes Agility increase from 97% to 99% as good at reducing incoming damage).


sorry to be a noob, but what does the "K" stand for in the equation?
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Ragingsoul » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:12 pm

Griffith wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Awyndel wrote:Kind of off topic here, but I just remembered I'm using an updated version of the armor vs stamina formula now wich takes toughness and kings/talents into account. I was just recalling how this whole agility gem discussion brought you to dig up that formula in the first place. Might help assess the value of armor ( on gear ) better, wich can obviously be used on this topic.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4152 ... amina.html


So for paladins, the formula should be
Code: Select all
           12.54(K+A/1.1)                     
1 stamina: ------- points of armour
              H

So at my gear level, estimating my buffed HP at 45k since I can't remember what it is:
12.54*(16635+29009/1.1)/45000 = 11.9846, or roughly 1 stam = 12 armor.

In any event, that doesn't change the code I wrote, since it didn't use that formula at all. The factor of 1.1 does though (again, makes Agility increase from 97% to 99% as good at reducing incoming damage).


sorry to be a noob, but what does the "K" stand for in the equation?


K is if you follow the link:

K = 467.5L - 22167.5
Where L is the level of the opponent being fought, so 16635 if you're againt a lvl 83 boss.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Kihra » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:11 am

theckhd wrote:So for paladins, the formula should be
Code: Select all
           12.54(K+A/1.1)                     
1 stamina: ------- points of armour
              H



Not that this makes much difference and apologies if my math is wrong here, but isn't this 12.54 number incorrect?

12.54 assumes that Sacred Duty and Combat Expertise are additive, e.g., 1.1 from kings * 1.14 = 12.54.

It seems like the number should be 12.59, since it should have been computed as 1.1 * 1.08 * 1.06.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:12 am

Kihra wrote:
theckhd wrote:So for paladins, the formula should be
Code: Select all
           12.54(K+A/1.1)                     
1 stamina: ------- points of armour
              H



Not that this makes much difference and apologies if my math is wrong here, but isn't this 12.54 number incorrect?

12.54 assumes that Sacred Duty and Combat Expertise are additive, e.g., 1.1 from kings * 1.14 = 12.54.

It seems like the number should be 12.59, since it should have been computed as 1.1 * 1.08 * 1.06.

I think you're correct. My guess is that Satrina (whose post I linked as the source) rounded 1.06 * 1.08 = 1.1448 down to 1.14 (or 11.4 hit points). My guess is that the rounding is more accurately applied at the end. The net result isn't likely to be very large though.

Still, the correct formula should probably be
Code: Select all
           12.59(K+A/1.1)                     
1 stamina: -------------- points of armour
              H
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Kihra » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:40 pm

Technically A/1.1 is no longer accurate either, since only a portion of your overall armor is affected by Toughness.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:03 pm

Kihra wrote:Technically A/1.1 is no longer accurate either, since only a portion of your overall armor is affected by Toughness.


Satrina wrote: You're getting into the difference betwen a scientist and an engineer here. The portion of your armour that is unaffected by talents is small compared to your total. "Close enough" or "within error tolerances" is the term you're looking for :)
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