Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, guillex

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Xequecal » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:46 pm

fafhrd wrote:This sounds suspiciously easier than interrupting if things like deterrence work on it. I know the strikes can miss, not sure about be parried. 1 MM hunter could negate 4-5 SS cooldowns (i.e. survive simultaneous SS from all 4 adds at once 4-5 times) just by standing far a way and deterrencing ~5 seconds before the cooldown?


It's not QUITE that easy. The adds jump to whoever they're shadow striking. If he sits 40 yards away they'll jump off the ice and immediately burrow. You have to position your raid so that the hunter is farthest from all four adds yet they're still on the ice if they decide to jump to him.
Xequecal
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:54 pm

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Belloc » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:01 pm

Xequecal wrote:
fafhrd wrote:This sounds suspiciously easier than interrupting if things like deterrence work on it. I know the strikes can miss, not sure about be parried. 1 MM hunter could negate 4-5 SS cooldowns (i.e. survive simultaneous SS from all 4 adds at once 4-5 times) just by standing far a way and deterrencing ~5 seconds before the cooldown?


It's not QUITE that easy. The adds jump to whoever they're shadow striking. If he sits 40 yards away they'll jump off the ice and immediately burrow. You have to position your raid so that the hunter is farthest from all four adds yet they're still on the ice if they decide to jump to him.

They don't immediately burrow after a shadow strike, do they? I don't believe they do.

The point still has merit, of course, but I think it quite likely that they would simply zoom back to the tank with their 300% movement speed and everything would be back to normal before they tried to burrow. Of course, there would be the occasional unlucky burrow that would quite likely cause a wipe.


I think a more important issue is the AOE DPS lost during the time it takes them to run back.
User avatar
Belloc
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:56 pm
Location: Silent Earth

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:12 pm

fafhrd wrote:
This sounds suspiciously easier than interrupting if things like deterrence work on it. I know the strikes can miss, not sure about be parried. 1 MM hunter could negate 4-5 SS cooldowns (i.e. survive simultaneous SS from all 4 adds at once 4-5 times) just by standing far a way and deterrencing ~5 seconds before the cooldown?


Simply not anyway since Shadostrike teleports the adds BEHIND the person, and Deterrence only works on attacks from front.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13373
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Belloc » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:23 pm

Worldie wrote:
fafhrd wrote:
This sounds suspiciously easier than interrupting if things like deterrence work on it. I know the strikes can miss, not sure about be parried. 1 MM hunter could negate 4-5 SS cooldowns (i.e. survive simultaneous SS from all 4 adds at once 4-5 times) just by standing far a way and deterrencing ~5 seconds before the cooldown?


Simply not anyway since Shadostrike teleports the adds BEHIND the person, and Deterrence only works on attacks from front.

I wonder what would happen if the hunter put their back to the wall?
User avatar
Belloc
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:56 pm
Location: Silent Earth

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Roknroll » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:41 pm

I think everyone's spending too much time working on unreliable gimmicks to get through parts of the fight that don't need them.

1. Shadow Strike

    Just figure out how to interrupt it reliably instead of having a soaker. The chances of that add burrowing after the shadow strike are pretty high as well. It might not do it every time, but if that's the strategy you are relying on then you will have a lot of random unnecessary wipes because of it. Every raid has at least 2 paladins, which makes it easy to interrupt with Holy Wraths staggered 2 seconds apart.

    The first paladin should use HW just as the timer finishes. The 2nd paladin should have a burrower set to his focus and hit it if he sees the cast bar for the spell. the 2nd paladin should be either prot or ret, and they should just auto attack for several 1-2 seconds before/after the shadow strike should be going off to account for any timer errors. Also, know which boss mods you are using and how their timers are affected in phase 3.

2. Kiting all 4 adds
    It's just not possible without a block capped tank. To keep them on the ice, even with 2 patches side by side, you don't have enough room to kite them without crossing paths a LOT. They also gain 100% movement speed per burrow nearby, so they'll be almost back up to normal speed on the ice. With 4 together they've got about a 0.3 second swing timer, so just 1 second of being in melee range is about 13 swings at you. With good avoidance, you're still getting hit 4-5 times in 1 second. Without block mitigation, those hits will be for over 10k each.
Roknroll
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:46 am

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Roknroll » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:43 pm

Awyndel wrote:
Roknroll wrote:If you are at the defense minimum, block cap, and 4k block value then why don't you just single tank all 4 adds?


Holy shield :)


In your first post, I thought you were saying you are block capped w/o holy shield. If you aren't block capped w/o holy shield then ya, just keep the 2 adds. Again, pure block value and low stamina is the best thing for you. I'd even click off HP boosting buffs of consumables. With only 2 adds on you, block capped with holy shield, and 4k block value you will barely take any damage.
Roknroll
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:46 am

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Xequecal » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:33 pm

Roknroll wrote:I think everyone's spending too much time working on unreliable gimmicks to get through parts of the fight that don't need them.

1. Shadow Strike

    Just figure out how to interrupt it reliably instead of having a soaker. The chances of that add burrowing after the shadow strike are pretty high as well. It might not do it every time, but if that's the strategy you are relying on then you will have a lot of random unnecessary wipes because of it. Every raid has at least 2 paladins, which makes it easy to interrupt with Holy Wraths staggered 2 seconds apart.

    The first paladin should use HW just as the timer finishes. The 2nd paladin should have a burrower set to his focus and hit it if he sees the cast bar for the spell. the 2nd paladin should be either prot or ret, and they should just auto attack for several 1-2 seconds before/after the shadow strike should be going off to account for any timer errors. Also, know which boss mods you are using and how their timers are affected in phase 3.

2. Kiting all 4 adds
    It's just not possible without a block capped tank. To keep them on the ice, even with 2 patches side by side, you don't have enough room to kite them without crossing paths a LOT. They also gain 100% movement speed per burrow nearby, so they'll be almost back up to normal speed on the ice. With 4 together they've got about a 0.3 second swing timer, so just 1 second of being in melee range is about 13 swings at you. With good avoidance, you're still getting hit 4-5 times in 1 second. Without block mitigation, those hits will be for over 10k each.


Honestly, suggesting these "gimmicks" is mainly to deal with the Golden Rule of leading raid DPS - if the job you give them substantially affects their ability to get the Recount high score, they will suck at it. The problem with the 1.5s Shadow Strike cast is if you're interrupting it with Holy Wrath, because most SS timers are somewhat inaccurate, that Paladin basically can't do ANYTHING else besides autoattack for the 5 seconds before and after the timer runs down or he risks GCD locking himself out of being able to interrupt. Deterrence is off the GCD, it can be pushed anytime, all you need is someone with good reflexes. He can DPS to his heart's content without fear.

In P3, Holy Paladins really can't afford to stop healing for that long. If you give this job to a Ret Paladin, without fail he might do it OK for like 3-5 attempts, but on every subsequent attempt he will cut the timer closer and closer to DPS more until he starts failing at it again. Raid leaders here know what I'm talking about. Along similar lines are Rogues that don't save Energy to kick Vezax, hybrid DPS that don't ever cleanse the healer in Yogg's brain room, and that guy that always goes insane in Yogg P3 because turning away three seconds before Gaze and waiting until three seconds after it's done costs too much DPS.
Last edited by Xequecal on Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Xequecal
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:54 pm

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Wrathy » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:41 pm

As much as I see what you are saying Xequecal, the fact of the matter is that the guilds that are getting Anub'arak down are the ones that have dps that know that is unacceptable behavior. If you assign a dps to do a job, they should do it, even if that means that they are not topping the charts. If they do not do it, you give them a warning, then you give them the boot.

Plain and simple, this fight is about 100% competency from every player, and you can not expect anything less from your players.
Dakiros wrote:Hear that sound? Its Wrathy breaking Wowhead and Wordpress while he quickly comes up with the Rival set.

Avenging Wrathy - A Protection Paladin Blog
Wrathy's Guide to Gear Sets

Image
Wrathy
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby fafhrd » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:27 pm

Worldie wrote:...and Deterrence only works on attacks from front.


No, it doesn't. See earlier posts.

The risk of a burrow is the primary argument against trying to just soak Sstrikes though, I hadn't thought of that. I'm mainly surprised that this is the first I've heard strong statements about being able to control who gets Sstruck though, which is a handy bit of info. I'll try to find out if the strike is parry/deflectable anyway, although I doubt we'll try to use it to make an interrupt-less strat - at the very least the tanks and dps would be annoyed at the adds rushing out of their range every now and then (although the interrupters would be much less stressed).
ImageImage
1/1 Lore pre-nerf.
User avatar
fafhrd
 
Posts: 5432
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:31 pm

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Roknroll » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:29 pm

we've had SS miss people before or be fully resisted. it's shadow damage so other avoidance stats probably won't do anything. It hits for about 30k base, and we are seeing about 8k resisted.
Roknroll
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:46 am

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby fafhrd » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:41 pm

Roknroll wrote:we've had SS miss people before or be fully resisted. it's shadow damage so other avoidance stats probably won't do anything. It hits for about 30k base, and we are seeing about 8k resisted.


Yeah I've seen several miss me. Doesn't really say anything about whether it can be deterrenced though, since boss abilities are fairly inconsistent with respect to the ability. All melee attacks get parried, most aoes get through, some aoes (pew x3, light vortex) get deflected. If SS is a magical melee attack it could be parried, if it's a spell it could be deflected. If it's an actual ranged attack (not a melee or a spell) it will get through.
ImageImage
1/1 Lore pre-nerf.
User avatar
fafhrd
 
Posts: 5432
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:31 pm

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby hoho » Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:18 am

Xequecal wrote:... and that guy that always goes insane in Yogg P3 because turning away three seconds before Gaze and waiting until three seconds after it's done costs too much DPS.
FYI, it is possible to keep up full-time DPS on Yogg during the gaze as most casters,you just need to be mouse turning and be facing him at when you start cast (and end for DD spells). E.g shadowpriest can start casting flay and immediately turn away, it'll keep casting without problems and if timed right you won't loose any sanity. It's tricky but doable. Though due to my lowish FPS I generally just spammed dots on adds during that.
Leap of Faith:
Good news, everyone! We can now heal stupidity!
User avatar
hoho
 
Posts: 2445
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:02 pm
Location: Estonia

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby fafhrd » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:37 am

You can also turn quickly to get shots off between gaze ticks. This generally means eating some ticks to get the timing right though, so not something to try without sanity wells around.
ImageImage
1/1 Lore pre-nerf.
User avatar
fafhrd
 
Posts: 5432
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:31 pm

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Joanadark » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:50 pm

We had a Anub kill where an add shadowstepped out to the tank and was trying to burrow, and one of the mages blinked forward and blast waved him back onto the ice.
It was pretty pro.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby fafhrd » Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:52 am

Hate you brekkie :X

Our uses of blastwave and that shaman knockback have been... less desirable.
ImageImage
1/1 Lore pre-nerf.
User avatar
fafhrd
 
Posts: 5432
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:31 pm

PreviousNext

Return to T9: Argent Coliseum / Koralon

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

Who is online

In total there are 0 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 0 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests