Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Ragingsoul » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:56 am

for some reason, I just can't figure out a gear with passive block caped. I tried in Rawr, trying with what I have in my bank, best I I can come up with is around 93% from avoidance+block, with around 43% block without holy shield.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:13 am

Ragingsoul wrote:for some reason, I just can't figure out a gear with passive block caped. I tried in Rawr, trying with what I have in my bank, best I I can come up with is around 93% from avoidance+block, with around 43% block without holy shield.

Using defense gems? Enchants? Considering buffs on you?

Neara wrote:Can anyone think of a way to do 2 add-tank strat without a DK? We don't have one. Again so much for bring the player not the class.


"Bring the player, not the class" still assumes a healthy, balanced raid. It means that you can get the vast majority of your raid buffs and debuffs from a variety of sources. It does not, however, assume that you are completely lacking in certain classes. You should still be bringing a Shaman (heroism) and, in this case, a Death Knight.

This isn't a problem with Blizzard's raid buff philosophy.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Sathoris » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:10 am

Assumig a BS / JC proffesion combo on our Tank the BiS (IMO) block rating items you can get are in this template:

http://chardev.org/?profile=310113

It reaches 107.42 in combined avoidance + block with the following buffs:
Blessing of Kings
Horn of Winter
Mark of the Wild (untalented)
Well Feed (Agility)

You can play with it and tweak it as much as you like in order to get the passive 101.6% avoidance that is needed to tank an lvl 82 mob.

My template has way more block then it's needed but i reckon noone though of keeping these items in bank for such a long time :).

I'm still in doubt if this passive block cap is really needed if you use 2 add tanks as paladin assumic HS Use on CD / Redoubt Proc, but i reckon a 5% wipe with the add tank dying because of the unlucky RNG is the fear of every add tank in this encounter who's not passive block capped.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Joanadark » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:27 am

Using 2 Add Tank (3 Tank Strategy as some people like to call it) strategy, as a prot paladin (with HS Up) don't require to get Passive Block Cap ?


That is correct.

Isn't 4% against same lvl as you? 2 lvl above you should be 6%. And shadow priest AoEing applies only if you include Shadow Word: Pain on all 4 mobs as AoEing. Mind Sear doesn't apply the hit debuff. http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=33193

A shadow priest would be applying Vampiric Touch to all four adds as they run in unless he intends to A)do terrible damage and/or B)run out of mana 40 seconds into the fight. Misery will always be up on all four mobs if you have a competant shadow priest aoeing.

You got me on hit chance though, I stand corrected. its 6% miss chance for spells on an 82 target. That still means that it requires a measly 79 hit rating to be 100% capped, 52 rating if you have a daenei in your group. Just wearing the Ony helm for example would be enough.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Wrathy » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:37 am

Sathoris wrote:http://chardev.org/?profile=310113


Not to nitpick, but your block value is abysmally low in that set at ~2500. Im sitting at 3150 unbuffed block value and I am still taking three times as much damage as our warrior in the same gear. My biggest problem is that we are using a warrior and a pally on 2 adds a piece, and I am taking amazing amounts of damage still. I am sitting at about 102.9% raid buffed with 153 hit (as we stack all four adds on one patch and use Holy Wrath for interrupts), and I am getting rocked on damage taken.

I am considering swapping out the T8 helm for the T9 and seeing what the increased block value can do, but I already am skirting the passive unhittable mark with swapping agility food for hit food and a few defense gems for hit ones to ensure the stuns get off.

I am hoping that I can tweak my set a bit and get some more block value. If I can get that up a bit, the damage taken should be minimized, I just dont know where to get it from with out sacrificing more hit. As usual, my chardev set is: http://www.chardev.org/?template=274296
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Sathoris » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:50 am

Wrathy wrote:Not to nitpick, but your block value is abysmally low in that set at ~2500. Im sitting at 3150 unbuffed block value and I am still taking three times as much damage as our warrior in the same gear.


I haven't built up a balanced set. It was a plain template with the best block rating gear you can find or full avoidance to compensate lack of block rating items in those slots.

It wasn't far from the requred set for tanking the adds on anub tbh, I did mentioned that the template needs tweaking because i reckon very very few people has all that gear in their possesion.

I forgot to mentioned that it's required roughly 3.5k BV raid buffed for this fight so the tweaks to the set will goes into that direction. I haven't had time to set up a "perfect" set that will bring us to block cap including the highest block value that we can get.

But something you wrote bring up some thoughs of mine regarding this fight and here they are:

Paladin vs Warrior in this fight:

2 Add Tanks
Paladin > Warrior due to the use of HS and focusing on stacking block value (can be reached up to 5.6k BV raid buffed)
In this case a paladin don't need to be passive block capped so our stat investment will be in STR gems / STR enchants every bit that will increase our block value but keep us in 101.6% margin with HS up.

1 Add Tank
Using only 1 Tank for all 4 adds (or using 2) but stacking the adds too close so they buff eachother: Warrior > Paladin
Why ?
A warrior has a 5% block chance from talents (thus less itemisation points spent in there)
Paladins needs to get in line with warrior in getting passive block cap so we'll end up with more item points spent in this matter
A warrior will shine with Critical Block talent because they are already block capped.


TL;DR version:
Warrior Advantage is when passive block cap is needed (5% Block rating free + Double Block Value - Critical Block)
Paladin Advantage is when passive block cap is not needed (30% block rating free)
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Wrathy » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:18 am

To echo your statement, for tanking all four adds with in range of each other, Critical Block is an extremely powerful talent. I would assume that it is the main source of the reduced damage taken that our warrior has. Last attempts that we had, he took 400k less damage than I did with the same gear, on a 7.5 minute attempt.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Joanadark » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:34 am

To be honest a correctly geared warrior will ALWAYS be superior to a paladin for add tanking, regardless of how many tanks you use. I've seen parses where warriors took literally zero damage from the adds they tanked over the course of the fight. The fact that Shield Block can be used to double their block value and is useable for every single add wave has a lot to do with it.
The only advantage paladins have over warriors here is being better equipped to pick up and hold threat on all 4 adds by themself without the assistance of threat-transfers.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Meyrinn » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:07 pm

I'm beginning to hate this fight. Its not merely a matter of skill or execution at least until there is some way of doing it without a specific set of gearing. We don't have 2 block tanks and my passive set isn't completely there and farming previous tiers of content to obtain it is just plain stupid. My BV when passive is just over 3000. Most of the hits are fairly weak in the 3000 range but there are some spikes where it goes over 7000 a hit. Parses of the logs show these to be blocked hits. This isn't an issue until Phase 3 where a spike usually ends up with me facing into the ground. We've only tried 3 tanking the fight a few times and the damage output on the other tank was just too much and we can't reach Phase 3. I guess my guild will continue to farm Ulduar and Naxx until those pieces decide to drop.

To make it clear, i'm not saying it didn't take amazing skill and execution to the guilds that have cleared this. But more that even with the skill and execution its near impossible without specific gear sets from previous tiers of content. My guild isn't the most progressed in the world, but we can do the Twins without using the door strategy and the first 3 bosses weren't even a bump in our progression. I feel we are still very good guild, but we are suffering because we don't have 2 block tanks. What ever happened to bring the player not the class?
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:21 pm

I cannot stand it when people hide behind "bring the player, not the class."

How about adjusting your strategy if your tanks are dying? Permastunning/CCing the adds has been a strategy mentioned on this forum in the past. That is... wait for the Shadow Strike cooldown, holy wrath, Shockwave, Shadowfury, Dragon's Breath, dead adds. Other combinations of spells work as well. Tanking cooldowns can be similarly leveraged, as I imagine that your tanks don't just die the moment the adds start beating on them.

Block tanks are hugely helpful, but you can plan around having a weak tank. All of the cooldowns required for such a strategy have short cooldowns. Surely your tank can survive until the Shadow Strike cooldown is approaching?

I apologize for the inherent rudeness in my opening line, but I really cannot tolerate people using that line against Blizzard. That line wasn't intended for hard mode fights. That line does not even apply in your situation.
Last edited by Belloc on Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Kihra » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:31 pm

Meyrinn wrote:I'm beginning to hate this fight. Its not merely a matter of skill or execution at least until there is some way of doing it without a specific set of gearing. We don't have 2 block tanks and my passive set isn't completely there and farming previous tiers of content to obtain it is just plain stupid.


Then switch to the two add tank strat with the adds spread. There's no particular gear requirement for the add tanks for that strat. There are many different ways to be successful at this fight, and one of the biggest mistakes guilds can make is to pick the wrong strat given their particular raid composition.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Xequecal » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:41 pm

Joanadark wrote:To be honest a correctly geared warrior will ALWAYS be superior to a paladin for add tanking, regardless of how many tanks you use. I've seen parses where warriors took literally zero damage from the adds they tanked over the course of the fight. The fact that Shield Block can be used to double their block value and is useable for every single add wave has a lot to do with it.
The only advantage paladins have over warriors here is being better equipped to pick up and hold threat on all 4 adds by themself without the assistance of threat-transfers.


With how fast those adds hit when you tank four, Damage Shield alone far outthreats a Paladin's entire arsenal.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:32 am

Fixed numberz and added Glyph and Flask section. nom nom
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Wrathy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:22 am

Worldie, I would add a few things to your consumables section. First, for the truly insane (as I guess I am), Agility and Defense Elixirs are the best way to push you up to unhittable if you dont care about money/mats. I use those for every attempt, and as a result I farm A LOT on the weekends.

Also, I use hit food so that I can ensure that the stuns get off from my Holy Wrath, as I am actually the one interrupting the adds. Alternatively, you can also use Agility food for some more avoidance. Every little bit helps when min/maxing this set.

Finally, if you are solo tanking it, I found that if you use glyph of HoTR, threat on the adds is much easier. I personally use DP, HW, and HoTR Glyphs.
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Re: Tanking Anub'Arak heroic adds

Postby Joanadark » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:40 am

With how fast those adds hit when you tank four, Damage Shield alone far outthreats a Paladin's entire arsenal.


I was referring more to snap-pickup threat. Warriors have a little bit of trouble with multi-mob snap threat if they can use shockwave since it will cause stun DR.
Once all four adds are on the tank, threat is largely irrelevant. A hunter pet could stand there tanking them and hold aggro with all the AE Tricks of the Trade going on.
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