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[25H] Having some ToC issues, help is appreciated!

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[25H] Having some ToC issues, help is appreciated!

Postby defeated » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:55 am

So, we just recently got enough decent players to put together and make progress in heroic 25 man ToC, Northrend beasts was actually the hardest of the encounters for us, right until we reached Twin Valkyrs. We tried using the tankspot video for this, however the massive amount of static raid damage everyone takes plus the amount of damage the raid takes if they happen to hit an incorrect ball is scary, our healers cannot keep up, i do not think they are undergeared, however i don't know too much about healers. I am also sure we are going to have issues on Anub'arak once we reach him, on 10 man heroic our guild is fully capable of easily completing each encounter, only thing is like half of our guild is not as experienced, or does not pull the appropriate dps, etc.

I have been researching all night trying to find some strategies to the twin valkyrs strats and i saw a post on it and while i was reading i heard something about tanking them near the door.

Alternatively i was reading wowhead comments, and found this post

Allow me to share the 25man Heroic strategy my guild used to take them down last night, after several wipes on the more "regular" strategies.

The old idea
The more conventional tactics for this hardmode revolve around splitting the raid in two, and having one half protect the other from the wrong color orbs.
What we did was to have melee and healers as Dark and have range as white standing in a circle around the middle, trying to grab all the white orbs they could, while dodging the black.
Several problems occurred with this:
1. The black shield proved troublesome, since melee wouldn't have time to switch, and range would get twoshotted by wrong color orbs while trying to stand still and dps.
2. Light vortex was a b#&%h since melee+healers had to leave the safety of the middle to switch colors... twice. (first to light to survive, then back to dark to uphold the rules of the strategy)
3. Empowered Light/Dark is very often gained during Vortex, meaning that 90% of the time, either melee or range would have to discard the benefit, and switch back to their previous non-empowered color.

The new idea
My roommate, some guildies and myself spent an evening after our wipe raid to talk about the 3 problems I listed above, and here's what we came up with. (and in case you missed it, it works like a charm)

Setup
6-7 healers (we went with 7 since dps was no problem)
4 tanks (yes, alternative, but it will all make sense soon)
rest DPS (melee is to be prefered, but on our kill we actually had heavy range)

Strategy
Our new strategy revolves around minimizing movement and color switches and thereby maximizing the benefit gained from Empowered Light/Dark while keeping fairly safe.

What we do, is to have the entire raid go dark except 3 tanks.
1 of them would be tanking Darkbane, and the 2 others will simply be "soak tanks" running around eating as many white orbs as the can before they get to the raid. The whole idea behind having tanks, is that their high hp allows them to be a bit less careful about dodging dark orbs, and thereby granting them the ability to shield the raid more effectively.

We stand like this (click me) so the melees can hit them in the back naturally. Additionally, we stack the raid. And when I say stack the raid, I really mean stack! Trying to hide inside your boomkin is to be recommended, since minimizing the area that wrong color orbs can hit is paramount to survival. The "soak tanks" will be running around the raid and eating up orbs all the time (they are not included in my drawing)

Now this all seems very simple, and the beauty of it: it's all there is to it!
Here's how this strategy deals with abilities (this is just an example order, to give you the idea):

Dark vortex
Mmmm, free damage boost! (Soak tanks switch if they feel like it, or pop a cooldown)
Light shield
No action required since the whole raid is already black and dps'ing the light one.
Light vortex
Again, a free damage boost, the whole raid is standing within clicking range of a light portal, so we simply click it, and take position by the dark portal in the front (like this) and STAY THERE. No reason to throw away our color, since now everything is just inverted. Our soak tanks will go dark, and start eating the other color, and all dps simply just switch targets.
Dark shield
If this one comes after Light Vortex, then no action is required like above, if it comes before, then the whole raid simply clicks the portal they are standing next to, dps it down, and take position by the dark portal.

Summary
So, we simply take a position depending on what color the raid is, and we will maximum have one switch of color per ability. Every color switch comes with a position switch, but once everyone gets it (it took us 2 tries to get the position switching done fast and properly), it is no problem at all.

Advantages/Disadvantages
This tactic is very very strong in dps, and can therefore easily afford the 7 healers and 4 tanks, since every correctly colored orb reaching the raid will buff all the dps at the same time, and no one is ever giving up an empowered light/dark.
The cost of this, is that every incorrectly colored orb reaching the raid, will damage everyone, but thats why you have the soak tanks.

The order of abilities will decide how many minutes you spend killing them and how many times you have to run back and forth between the two positions, but other than that it's not really a problem.
The "worst" order possible is Light Vortex - Light shield - Dark shield - Dark Vortex since you will have to move every single time, but it is still not harder in any way due to the fact that you are always standing next to the portal you'll need.

If anyone could give me any ideas for strategies, strategies your guild has successfully used to kill them, or anything it would be really helpful. Also if anyone has any information about Anub'arak other than having a tank with enough avoidance+block to be "unhittable", and how we can work through the interrupts, high dps requirement, if its possible to burn him with only 1 burrow phase, or if we have to use 2 and take advantage of bopping those that are being chased etc.

Thank you in advance for any help given. =)

Defiance.
Last edited by defeated on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Having some ToC heroic 25 man issues, help is appreciated!

Postby semp » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:06 am

2 tanks + 2 soakers is a viable strat and its what we use. Have the soakers attune light and wearing some shadow resist gear is quite helpful.
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Re: Having some ToC heroic 25 man issues, help is appreciated!

Postby defeated » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:57 am

Do you think that would actually help at all if those pieces don't have enough stamina on them to support using the resistance?

I was thinking about using this wonky spec for soaking.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sxAzg00s ... uMGsc:jiTc

I would gain all of my stamina, as well as much of the damage reduction, also while i am picking up orbs, i can holy shock myself to keep myself alive lol.

If not, i was thinking this, I was thinking aura mastery+fire or shadow resistance aura would be really nice for when things get a little hairy.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sxAzg00s ... uMGsc:jiTc

This would be for PoJ speed buff for collecting orbs.
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Re: Having some ToC heroic 25 man issues, help is appreciated!

Postby Belloc » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:37 am

Keep in mind that grabbing an orb gives you a 75% speed boost... so PoJ is wholly unnecessary. Though, I haven't actually paid any attention to whether or not that speed boost exists on heroic mode, so ... heh.


As far as soakers go, if you have a soaker attuned to one color with a high resistance to the other color, stamina becomes a lot less of an issue. Furthermore, if that soaker is a feral druid, they can talent into 30% aoe damage reduction. Food for thought.
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Re: Having some ToC heroic 25 man issues, help is appreciated!

Postby defeated » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:45 am

Hmm, well does the resistances on the BC gear work with the paladin auras? I could easily farm enough badges in like an hour for them if so, for the shadow resistance ones. We also planned on either using our feral druid, or a Death Knight for our soakers, feral sounds like a very good option although, does that AoE mitigation work on raid bosses as well?

We pretty much have the whole resistance thing covered for the most, we have 2 holy paladins, and 5 raiding paladins normally lol. Do you think it would be worth speccing into holy that deep for holy shock in case i got low and just wear my normal protection gear? Aura mastery almost seems like a must in case i need to really take whole bunch of orbs at once, plus hand of salv glyph, as well as bubble+divine sac (anyone know if i can bubble and eat orbs?).
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Re: Having some ToC heroic 25 man issues, help is appreciated!

Postby Belloc » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:46 pm

Resistance on gear does stack with resistance buffs.

Personally, I'd recommend getting the BT shadow resistance gear, as it has a higher item level.
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Re: Having some ToC heroic 25 man issues, help is appreciated!

Postby defeated » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:55 pm

Well, its 20 extra resistance, however i don't know if its even worth the amount of mats, cost or grinding for the shadow resist ones personally. >< I doubt 20 additional resist would make or break a fight, would it?

Oooh, dampen magic would work, right?
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Re: Having some ToC heroic 25 man issues, help is appreciated!

Postby guillex » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:52 am

Please take a moment to read the Announcement:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic

You can edit your original post to change the subject title to fit in the guidelines.

Have a good one!
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Re: Having some ToC heroic 25 man issues, help is appreciated!

Postby Synagain » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:05 pm

We do a similar strat, but we just have our healers soak instead of tanks :p and our Holy Priest still put out like 10K + HPS while soaking.
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Re: Having some ToC heroic 25 man issues, help is appreciated!

Postby defeated » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:25 pm

guillex wrote:Please take a moment to read the Announcement:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic

You can edit your original post to change the subject title to fit in the guidelines.

Have a good one!



My apologies Guillex.

I fixed it. XD


On another note, i have been researching like a mad dog recently because my guild fails at the tankspot strat that the dude from fallen heroes posted with the video, after much reading i have decided between 2 possible strategies.

One question though, when everyone refers to "Door strat" Does this mean tanking the twins as close as possible to the door you enter the instance through?

Here are my 2 strats, if anyone has any suggestions, or ideas which may be easier for us, please let me know. I will also post what our general raid composition looks like as well.

Strategy #1

"We killed Heroic Twins on Sunday night using the door strat and after our first 10 attempts the Thursday before using the travelling square strat I can't believe how comparatively stable the door strat was.

Highlights:
- 8 or 9 melee/physical were Light on dark (hunters also).
- 8 or 9 casters/ranged were Dark on light.
(numbers of the two sides fluctuated slightly throughout the night)
- 6 or 7 healers (7 later, and the aoe healing from the holy priest definitely added to the win factor).
- Tanks obviously opposite colour from their targets.
- Tanks picked up all orbs, each strafing in a 90 degree arc, not just their own colour.
- No resist gear was used although I think that http://www.wowhea...item=49489 would be highly fight-specific useful if it ever were to drop.
- Personal CDs on first shield, lust on second, personals on third if it came to that.
- Profit.

Our problems were:
- DPS getting their tabbing or assist macros down so they switch for shields fast enough.
- Targets being tanked close enough for melee but far enough for ranged.
- Tanks getting used to both tanking and arc-strafing to keep bosses positions relatively stable, and of course grabbing all the balls that came our way.
- Shamans watching special ability CD timers and halting their rotation to cast lust immediately for the second shield instead of us having to wait a couple seconds.
- Paladins getting the aura mastery/d-sac system down in order to save the raid during novas.
- Finally having our only 3 priests log on halfway through the raid night (holy, disc and shadow) to join the raid [grin]

Good luck!"



Strategy #2

This is my first attempt at a guide ever, so bear with me. We have dubbed this the "door strat" there are videos of this strat used in a similar way on youtube etc, however, in this guide i will explain the intricacies of this strategy.
First, the why use the door strat? It is mostly used because it reduces the skill requirement and difficulty of the encounter by negating the orb factor. That being said, it also increases the RNG factor, so its a trade off.

To utilize this strategy,the both valkyrs are pulled, FACING THE FRONT DOOR that you zoned into, all the way up to the door. THe tanks will be facing the Gate they emerged from, with their backs touching the wall. The rest of the raid, all melee ranged and healers, stand directly under the bosses, stacked into 1 perfectly knit group (i cannot stress this enough, you must all be perfectly stacked). Lastly, 2-3 HUNTERS (yes, hunters are necessary) stand out further from the raid and play the role of SOAKERS.

Noone in the raid ever changes colors.... Noone in the stack, which should be 21-22 people, ever moves an inch. The boss is pulled to the gate so that; A) the tanks will now NEVER get hit by the orbs, reducing GIB factor; B) the raid will only get hit with 0-5 opposite color orbs.

Im going to explain the roles, however, i must prelude by saying that while it doesnt matter which boss you choose to focus initially, or what color the raid stack goes, my guild opted to go with the Dark Essence and focus Fjola Lightbane, so this guide is written from that point of view.

First and foremost, the Hunters. Hunters are required, if you are wondering why, its because they can DETERRENCE the opposite color vortex. Keep in mind, they will be deterrencing the vortex that the rest of the raid is soaking up and loving, so the call on vent should keep that in mind (more on that later). Basically, these two hunters need to know the encounter well, they must understand how to judge orb bounces off the wall, and in our scenario (the raid went dark essence), our ligh essence hunters tried to soak up the specifically dangerous light orbs and to protect the raid as best as possible. There are 2 keys to note.... First, these hunters have a high likelihood of death, which relates to the second note, since there are only 1 tanks and 2-3 hunters with the light essence, these members are basically guaranteed to get Touch of Darkness... so they will need dedicated healers

Second, the tanks. Any two tanks work, this encounter can even be 1 tanked, however threat becomes a problem in that scenario. Just pull the boss up to the wall and go nuts on threat. NEVER move, ever, ever.. For Healers, you will need to keep someone, we used a druid, rolling hots on the hunter soakers. The raid damage is huge so you will also need some good raid healers, which we used 2x resto shammies.

Third, i suggest a dedicated DBM hawk, as we call it, or someone who can dps without staring at his bars / buttons and can announce special abilities on vent. Key to this encounter is calling out intervals before a special ability. I am the announcer in my guild, and i start at 15 seconds, again at 10, and count down from 5. Allow me to segway with some more strategy here that explains why this is necessary.

Since you are never changing colors, dpsing the off color Pact, for us the Darkbane Pact, is the most challening part of this encounter. Even with bloodlust, its difficult to get the shield with the SAME COLOR essence. For this reason, the entire raid saves all offensive CD for this event. The hunters even temporarily stop defending the raid and pop rapid fire (this is the point where orbs may get to the raid). Moreover, even with all this, if the entire raid isnt targeting her with debuffs applied BEFOREHAND, you still probably wont get it. SO what we do to account for this, is the following:
1) at the 5 second mark, before an upcoming special ability, i announce that the raid should switch to Darkbane in our case.
2) this is done for every single special ability, EXCEPT THE FIRST. the encounters when Darkbanes pact is in the 4 spot are the best, as you know its coming and can preemptively BL. Moreover, if the Darkbane Pact is the first ability, you lose negligible damage by letting them just heal, if you waste BL you increase the chance of wiping.

When Darkbane Pacts (on any special other than the first), the call on raid should be Bloodlust! From that everyone should infer, go ballistic, dps like crazy. If its a Lightbane Pact, the call should be made by the lightbane tank to "Switch Back"... Conversely, Dark and Light Vortexes should also be called, however if you want to be safe, also announce defensive cooldowns for light vortex.

While dark vortex is tasty and makes us do more damage, Light Vortex will be a breaking point for your guild at first. Coping with this massive damage without changing colors is going to be hard, however, once you get the hang of how to do it, its actually really easy.

**** Coping with Light Vortex When Your Raid is Dark Essenced*****

first, getting 2x light vortex, or 2x light shields, is almost a guaranteed wipe. if your on hardmode, you know that the abilities are used in 4s, thus you must see each ability once every 4 specials, and the 5th will not be in the same order and can be anything.
With fire resist aura on, we pop aura mastery and 2x div sac. Even with this, i was still getting ticked for 7-10k per, so obviously having 2 paladins shield your raid isnt enough. How to push that down even further and guarantee your survival depends on your raid setup, most importantly, how many priests and druids you have. everyone should be consuming a healthstone here
Our strategy was, to arrange groups according to people with internal CDs to use to survive the light vortex. Those that did not, which for us was about 15 people, got grouped with a druid/priest for their aoe heals Tanquility/chant. Barkskin-Tranquility is that necessary.
a list of classes that dont need healed are:
spriest - dispersion
mage - iceblock
rogue - feint
warrior - shieldwall
DK - AMS CDs
hunters - Deterrence
Druids - Barkskin
Using a tranq, plus aura mastery div sac allowed us to survive this part. Also, if the healers can preroll hots on vulnerable low hp classes, this helps allot. If you plan to dps the Dark Shield Pact down, you cant afford any deaths.

And thats the fight, everyone switches to the offcolor target early in preperation of a Dark Shield Pact, and everyone goes defensive to survive Light Vortex. Once you can dps down the shields, and survive the pacts, its a RNG fight. Your waiting for that 1 attempt where the 4th ability is Dark Shield Pact, followed by a 5th and 6th ability which are anything but Light Vortex / Dark SHield pact...

this is a video of a similar method, however note, that in this method the raid stands in the doorway. We found it better to ahve the tanks stand there and let the raid soak up more Dark Orbs, even at the risk of light orbs hitting us. The dmg increase, if during a shield, is a huge help.
youtube - How To: Twin Valkyrs Heroic 25 (Cheesy Door Strat)

I truly hope my longwinded strat writeup helps some of you struggling with this encounter. i welcome any and all advice/suggestions/questions, just post them as reply's to this thread and ill check back in regularly. please dont waste everyone's time pointing out punctuation or gramatical errors.
-Bookers
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