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[25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Auroris » Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:42 am

But another thing about this strat that Brekkie is also getting to:

It relies SO heavy on RNG. Two Black shields in a row with 2min CDs and Heroism gone, it's no longer doable. Yeah, they have a certain set of abilities, but I call that as BS now that I've seen us getting 2 White Vortexes in a row and 2 Black shields in a row. We got the first one with Heroism, and the second one missed by like 2% on the shield.

I like this strat, but I despise the valk'yr not moving to my wishes. I hate having to reposition for the melee and hunters. I got called the master of erratic movement last night. ~_~. All in all, I like the strat, hate the RNG, we get a kill every week. We learned to go through 2 Vortexes now, since they make me tank the white add. I just lawl DS/BUBBLE. I don't need shield wall for that encounter.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:21 am

I'm going to be honest... if you're using the door strat with the entire raid as one color, you're either doing it wrong, or you don't have two aura masteries and divine sacrifices.

We split DPS between colors and shields went down just fine (granted, we did use heroism on the second shield, but I honestly don't think it made a difference). Again, however, this meant that we couldn't allow any orbs to get through and we HAD to use 2 cooldowns per vortex (and on the third vortex, I had to taunt the other twin and shield wall, since our other tank was the final Divine Sac).
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:30 am

Serv wrote:I blame my Raidleader every time we encounter the Twins for using the door strat and this week there were Orbs spanwning right there at the door.

We used this strategy on Saturday and there were no orbs in the doorway. Odds are that you just let orbs get through.

fafhrd wrote:
Joanadark wrote:if thats so easy, then why not do that then, instead of going through all the trouble of hiding a doorway?


For the same reason we don't try to 24 man bosses when there are 25 people online, because there's no reason to. If the geometry of the room serves the same function as an extra blocker or two, the geometry is the better choice.

You know, Fafhrd, I think it just boils down to the fact that they used so much time practicing the harder strat and feel like they're getting screwed because other people are willing to use the vastly superior positioning strat. They didn't look at it as a positioning fight and now they're getting all elitist because someone else figured out an easier way to do the fight.

It's kind of silly -- did you guys get mad when people figured out the safe spots on Gruul? The ledge on Eredar Twins? What about positioning under the ledge on Thorim causing all the adds to run straight to you? Hiding behind the throne to avoid Shadow Flame? Running around a wall to avoid Shadow Flame? LoSing the shout on Razuvious?

Positioning is a real mechanic in almost every fight in the game. Sometimes positioning is able to provide a huge advantage. It hasn't been fixed, despite there being ample time. This tells me that Blizzard considers it a legitimate strategy. If they ever want to fix it, we'll simply use another spot in the room for the same purpose. If Blizzard fixes that... then we'll know that you were right all along.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Serv » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:29 am

I'm pretty sure there was at least one orb spawning. Always the same people were taking damage, which didn't match touch of light/darkness. Well i haven't got a log or screen to prove it. So ... just consider me wrong.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:38 am

Well, I won't consider you right or wrong until Saturday, when I do the fight again :)
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Avengeance » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:48 am

We actually stack everyone on 1 colour and get a small team of guys to switch to white 10 secs before a cast until we get the blackshield. You can push DPS a lot faster with all raid on 1 colour (and granted we run 1 tank, the other mob doesnt have much threat on to handle full time nuking).

As I said previously, even if you miss a blackshield on a 5th cast its not the end of the world, with current gear level you CAN actually kill him just before enrage as we did. And we are 1 shotting it almost every time nowadays, sometimes 2 shots if we get unlucky with ppl dcing.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby semp » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:07 am

We downed this last night using a complied strat from several.

Everyone in the doorway.
We used 2 feral druids in max stam gear, and the 4 BT shadow resist crafted pieces attuned light. Feral druids eat all the orbs headed to the group. Cat form has an ability to reduce all aoe damage by 30% (aka orbs) and a talent to increase all heals done to them by 20%. In my opinion making them he best pure soakers available, as we also have a "last stand" ability, barksin for off color vortex as well. Luckily we have the 2 feral druids for this, but you can sub in any other soaker.

Tha majority of the raid is attuned black, except 1 tank and 5 melee dps (included hunter). The melee DPS and tank are fighting the dark twin, while the rest of the raid is on the Light. This allowed us to DPS down a second dark shield without a heroism, but by a very slim margin (less than a second left on the cast). If the dark shield is possible all the raid would pre DPS the dark about 5-10 seconds prior to the cast.

During the vortex, if it was your opposite color you needed to use personal CDs to stay alive along with a healthstone and/or health pot.

It took us about 5-6 trys to get this down using this strat.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Rorshach » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:58 am

We killed Heroic Twins on Sunday night using the door strat and after our first 10 attempts the Thursday before using the travelling square strat I can't believe how comparatively stable the door strat was.

Highlights:
- 8 or 9 melee/physical were Light on dark (hunters also).
- 8 or 9 casters/ranged were Dark on light.
(numbers of the two sides fluctuated slightly throughout the night)
- 6 or 7 healers (7 later, and the aoe healing from the holy priest definitely added to the win factor).
- Tanks obviously opposite colour from their targets.
- Tanks picked up all orbs, each strafing in a 90 degree arc, not just their own colour.
- No resist gear was used although I think that http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49489 would be highly fight-specific useful if it ever were to drop.
- Personal CDs on first shield, lust on second, personals on third if it came to that.
- Profit.

Our problems were:
- DPS getting their tabbing or assist macros down so they switch for shields fast enough.
- Targets being tanked close enough for melee but far enough for ranged.
- Tanks getting used to both tanking and arc-strafing to keep bosses positions relatively stable, and of course grabbing all the balls that came our way.
- Shamans watching special ability CD timers and halting their rotation to cast lust immediately for the second shield instead of us having to wait a couple seconds.
- Paladins getting the aura mastery/d-sac system down in order to save the raid during novas.
- Finally having our only 3 priests log on halfway through the raid night (holy, disc and shadow) to join the raid [grin]

Good luck!
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:42 am

Rorshach, the way I handle target switching is pretty simple and may help you guys out.

First, set your focus target to the mob that you aren't DPSing. Make sure that you have a focus frame enabled, so that you can see what your focus target is doing.

Next, keybind Target Focus in the keybind options.

Finally, when a special is coming, just watch your target and your focus and simply hit your Target Focus keybind if you need to. Though, when they're tanked together like this, a single tab-target should be sufficient.

No macros should be needed. Having a focus target up ensures that every single DPS in the raid knows exactly which boss is doing which ability. If they need someone to tell them, they probably shouldn't be in a heroic 25-man :P
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Joanadark » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:56 pm

But you're not objecting to the lack of movement, you're objecting to positioning against a doorway which is a stupid thing to object to, that's not what makes the strat so popular. Dumbing down the fight is what makes the strat popular.


And here we have it. Dumbing down the fight. You said it yourself. This is exactly the frustration that alot of us are having with this game, where the most high-end content in game has stupid little exploits that completely eliminate the requirement for people to actually play right.

Movement is 99% of skill in this game. There is nothing else. Maybe ability to target quickly, or having an efficient set of keybinds or a well designed ui.
A mindless drone can go to EJ, look up the correct rotation and download rawr to tell them how to gear. Nor are the rotations for any of the classes difficult. In most cases a 1 or 2 button macro can play most classes as well or better than an actual person.

I will never compromise on trading the requirement to have to move intelligently for simply standing there and brute force mashing your buttons as being somehow an equal difficulty. I could modify a basic fish-bot program to play every person in the raid using a door-strat method of killing this fight. I could never do something like that for, say, KJ, because there were no tricks for KJ that completely eliminated the requirement to move intelligently.

You know, Fafhrd, I think it just boils down to the fact that they used so much time practicing the harder strat and feel like they're getting screwed because other people are willing to use the vastly superior positioning strat. They didn't look at it as a positioning fight and now they're getting all elitist because someone else figured out an easier way to do the fight.


We spent about 15 attempts the very first week of hard mode experimenting with a bunch of different options and testing mechanics. When we settled on the strat we currently use we killed it on the third try.
Now, we one-shot the fight every week with it on farm. A brute force door strategy RNGs their way through the encounter and even with it on farm runs a significant risk of spending wipes if the abilities don't line up in their favor. What seems like the intended way of beating the encounter given the tribute system in place to you?

I don't feel screwed or threatened by people getting kills weeks and weeks after my guild did. Sometimes it happens that an easier way of handleing an encounter emerges over time. Eredar twins was a good example.
However there was also a case on archimonde where there was this log that doomfire couldnt reach you if you stood behind. So guilds started getting cheese archimonde kills by stacking their whole raid behind this tiny log to save them from the gigantic demon of the burning legion. It took a while to nerf that log too, several weeks after people started using it.

At the end of the day though, whatever gets people their world #89453 Twins kill doesn't really affect me, apart from having the majority of potential recruits have no idea how to do that fight because they are just used to standing in one spot and smashing 2.

All I'm trying to point out is that an obviously cheese strat is cheese.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:13 pm

You call it a brute force strategy... the only attempt that we failed with it on was the attempt where we had one person specced into aura mastery. The second attempt, we had two aura masteries and the boss died. This is not a brute force strategy -- it's a complete control strategy.


You say that all of these fights have "small exploits...", well, what do you call an unhittable tank on Anub? The fight is obviously not intended to be tanked that way, and yet EVERYONE does it. That's being hypocritical.

The fact is that Blizzard allows these "small exploits" because they are, in fact, not exploits. They are simply strategies that players came up with that work for their raid (for instance, the likely intended way of dealing with shields on Kael'thas was to dps it down before the second Pyroblast. Some groups couldn't meet that requirement, so they used a rotation of cooldowns for the second Pyroblast. Exploit? Cheese? No). Even knowing that Blizzard didn't intend for guilds to shelve DKs and Ferals in exchange for block tanks, they still haven't changed the fight to fix it... because they like it when players out-smart them.

So, until Blizzard comes out and either fixes it or says that it is exploiting, it is a legitimate strategy and people really need to stop complaining about it.


And, as a side note, I want to say that I really respect the way you do the fight. Your strategy (unless I'm totally off here) shows a high level of skill. That's fantastic -- a real credit to your players. That's no excuse, however, to be bashing another strategy (or, more accurately, the groups using that strategy). When you bash a strategy in the presence of people using it, you're also bashing those people. That is the sole reason I threw around the term "elitist." You really have no place insulting the other members of your community just because you killed a boss faster than we did.

It sure would've been a lot nicer to see you say something like, "Wow that strategy sure makes the fight a lot easier. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't want it to be completed that way. Grats on the kill, all the same!"
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Joanadark » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:37 pm

Fair enough. I apologise for coming off elitist. I'm pretty frustrated with this content tier in general, and been in a bad mood since we wiped on anub at sub-1% at 50 attempts remaining last week.

Wow that strategy sure makes the fight a lot easier. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't want it to be completed that way. Grats on the kill, all the same!
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:49 pm

No hard feelings.

Best wishes on Insanity next week (and immortality in the weeks to come!), you'll get it soon! I've certainly been watching your progress and hoping for the best!
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby fafhrd » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:55 pm

Joanadark wrote:
But you're not objecting to the lack of movement, you're objecting to positioning against a doorway which is a stupid thing to object to, that's not what makes the strat so popular. Dumbing down the fight is what makes the strat popular.


And here we have it. Dumbing down the fight. You said it yourself. This is exactly the frustration that alot of us are having with this game, where the most high-end content in game has stupid little exploits that completely eliminate the requirement for people to actually play right.


Well gee, grats on "catching" me conceding a point I flat out stated for myself 3 weeks ago in my first post on the subject.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby guillex » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:40 pm

Keep it civil.
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