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[25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Kagei » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:22 am

Hi we killed them yesterday with Door Tactic with few modifications.

- Melee DPS (1x Hunter too) takes White portal, Ranged DPS and all Healers Black. One tank White ane other Black.
- We use 3 Destruction Warlocks (Spec for best survive and dmg reduction (Soulink, Molten Skin, Nether Protection) to block all orbs that go to the raid.

- First Light Vortex Paladin Divine Sacrifice to the raid + Fire Aura Mastery
- First Dark Vortex Anti Magic Zone + Shadow Aura Mastery + Health Stones
- Second Light Vortex 2 Druids (Boomkin) Tranquility + Health Stones + Healing Potions + Personal Cooldowns to survive Vortex
- Second Dark Vortex Personal Cooldowns (Cloak of Shadows, Shield Wall (Dps Warriors) , DK spell dmg reduction etc...) + Healing potions
TO interupt healing we just switch to Valkyr with bubble, every time we kicked the heal arround 90 % cast.

Sry my english is not very well :)


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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Joanadark » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:51 am

wow @ this door tactic.

I'm going to be seriously saddened if this ends up being the primary way guilds kill this boss. Its just as lame as the platform strat for Heigan where you avoided dancing completely.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Belloc » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:36 am

Positioning has always been and always will be a legitimate and incredibly important aspect of killing bosses. You may not like it, but it is a very good and intelligent strategy.

It does not require a doorway -- you can successfully utilize this strategy in many places (if not ANY place) along the wall. The whole point of the strategy is to shrink the potential for orbs to hit the players. You can do this by having orb catchers circling a raid in the middle of the room, or you can have all of your players against a wall and only have to block a 180 degree arc. Or, with the door, you can block slightly less than that.

I don't like good strategies being put down just because they reduce the difficulty of the fight. Remember, the normal strategy does not require aura masteries combined with divine sacrifices, nor does it require extreme healing during vortex casts. So, once again, this strategy is a legitimate strategy.

Let's be honest -- the only problem guilds have with this strategy is that they didn't think of it first.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Avengeance » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:17 pm

The "door strat" shifts the encounter focus from individual survival into a raid healing fight, depending on what your guild is better at. I for one trust my healers more than my DPSers to not die. Sooner or later you can call this brute forcing by using superior gear to do the fight, at least for us its getting easier and easier each week, even if you make a mistake of letting a shield heal, it's still catching-up-able.

I wouldnt go as far as calling it abuse or lame tho - Heigan example was a different story, I think that was more like a bug where the dmg couldnt hit a certain place in the room, this on the other hand is reducing the area soakers have to cover down, as person above said, the doorway doesnt actually do much, you can put your raid anywhere along the wall to have the same effect. Most of the time I cant actually position the bosses close enough (due to their big hit box) to the door so people have the luxury of hiding behind the door walls.

We found another potentially abuse actually the other day - not sure if it works though, but if you deliberately dont finish looting the chest from Faction Champs, you can actually jump onto the chest for Twins. I havent tested it myself, but whether orbs can hit u while you are on the chest is the question - if they dont, thats potentially abusable.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby amh » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:40 pm

We didn't even try the door-strat, actually. Should probably look it up, but our soaking scheme works pretty well when you manage to get rid of personal fuckups.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Joanadark » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:45 pm

Positioning has always been and always will be a legitimate and incredibly important aspect of killing bosses. You may not like it, but it is a very good and intelligent strategy.


Thats exactly what people said about the heigan strat.
The door strat revolves around trivializing the part of the encounter that distinguishes hard mode from normal mode and making it ignorable just like normal mode. I have trouble considering a method that involves completely ignoring a basic component of the encounter mechanics to be legitimate.
Using Aura Masteries, Divine Sacs, and personal defensive cooldowns to survive the heavy damage phases of the encounter is hardly something unique to the door strat either. They're kinda.. basic tools of beating a progression encounter.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:10 pm

Joanadark wrote:
Positioning has always been and always will be a legitimate and incredibly important aspect of killing bosses. You may not like it, but it is a very good and intelligent strategy.


Thats exactly what people said about the heigan strat.
The door strat revolves around trivializing the part of the encounter that distinguishes hard mode from normal mode and making it ignorable just like normal mode. I have trouble considering a method that involves completely ignoring a basic component of the encounter mechanics to be legitimate.
Using Aura Masteries, Divine Sacs, and personal defensive cooldowns to survive the heavy damage phases of the encounter is hardly something unique to the door strat either. They're kinda.. basic tools of beating a progression encounter.

It doesn't though, if I understand it correctly. The orbs and everything else are still there, and still has to be dealt with, but using a wall apparently makes it easier because there's less room to cover. It's not unlike tanking a boss with a knockback against a wall so that the tank/healers/dps don't lose range, and by the sounds of it, using the wall comes at a cost in dealing with vortexes. Now if there was some hole that made it so that orbs couldn't hit the raid and could be completely ignored, then I'd say it's pretty lame and should be fixed, but merely grouping up against a wall doesn't seem to violate the intent of the encounter.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Joanadark » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:38 pm

The way the door strat has been described, the entire raid stacks inside the alcove that the large doors are inset into the wall within, and the tanks merely tank the bosses on the outer side of the alcove and block any orbs of any color from hitting anyone.
Not to mention, orbs spawn around the room and move in perfectly straight lines and bounce predictably, meaning that the only orbs which would intersect the raid stacking in this inset alcove are the ones that spawn heading directly towards it our bounce in its direction. This means that the vast majority of the orbs bounce around harmlessly in the middle of the room and are ignored.
Sounds pretty lame to me. Perhaps I missed something somewhere.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby fafhrd » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:47 pm

Well, you missed the ridiculous raid-wide damage from the entire raid being black through 2-3 white vortices, and the dps requirement of having to break 2-3 black shields with your whole raid being black and people being lucky to get 1 empower the whole fight (with a more normal strat I can get 2 empowers reliably with barely any effort).

Being in the door definitely makes avoiding the orbs a lot easier, not so much because of where you are (you take just as few orbs if you stand in the middle of the room and have an extra 1-2 good soakers too), but because where you are makes you give up the temptation of letting people move around on their own. The entire raid still gets hit by the wrong color orbs every now and then (melee more often than ranged), and everything other than orb avoidance in the fight is harder for your first kill (subsequent kills get easier every week though, since it's a gear check strat, and you get better gear every week). And since you mention it, no tanks aren't blocking all orbs, they can't. You still need a dedicated blocker or two running around as a different color from the raid to pop orbs.

Perhaps you don't understand how tight the DPS check is when no one is the right color to break a shield - there were plenty of times we failed a shield on a door strat pull simply because 1 debuff or buff (windfury, savage combat) was missing. On normal strat pulls with the same DPSers breaking a shield was never even remotely a problem (having 5 people not die whenever they moved to switch colors was the problem with a normal strat for us, because apparently everyone goes blind while holding down movement keys).
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Belloc » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:12 pm

Joanadark wrote:
Positioning has always been and always will be a legitimate and incredibly important aspect of killing bosses. You may not like it, but it is a very good and intelligent strategy.


Thats exactly what people said about the heigan strat.
The door strat revolves around trivializing the part of the encounter that distinguishes hard mode from normal mode and making it ignorable just like normal mode. I have trouble considering a method that involves completely ignoring a basic component of the encounter mechanics to be legitimate.

Ok, let me modify your quote and transport it into the Anub thread.

The block strat revolves around trivializing the part of the encounter that distinguishes hard mode from normal mode and making it ignorable just like normal mode. I have trouble considering a method that involves completely ignoring a basic component of the encounter mechanics to be legitimate.


Here are the facts: We absolutely have to heal through massive damage on half of the raid at a time. Even with aura mastery and divine sacrifice, the healing is intense. People still die on occasion. We still have two players running interference on orbs. We still cannot allow ANY orbs, black or white, to get through.

So, once again, just because you didn't think of the easier strategy does not make it illegitimate. This strategy has been in use since, what, the second week? It's been popular since before 3.2.2. If Blizzard didn't like it, all they would have to do to remove the door strat is to place a single random orb spawn in the door or a fire wall mechanic. Bam, instant raid wipe. Of course, then you could just position to almost any point along the wall and use an almost identical strategy. So... yeah, the strategy is legitimate.

Seriously, all I would have to do is put one person in resist gear, stand them on top of two orb spawns, and then put the raid right in front of those orbs. From this point on, we have a make-shift door. Here, I made a rough sketch. Bam, instant door strat, anywhere. The only difference is that we have one player in shadow resist gear eating orbs every however many seconds. Same exact strat, otherwise. Can you tell me that this is not legitimate? (Oh, btw, gray blob is the raid. I forgot to note that in the image).
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Joanadark » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:28 am

if thats so easy, then why not do that then, instead of going through all the trouble of hiding a doorway?
thats my point. I dont object to the concept of catchers. EVERY STRAT uses catchers. Only this strat involves hiding in a peice of terrain so that nothing can hit everyone else.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby fafhrd » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:10 am

Joanadark wrote:if thats so easy, then why not do that then, instead of going through all the trouble of hiding a doorway?


For the same reason we don't try to 24 man bosses when there are 25 people online, because there's no reason to. If the geometry of the room serves the same function as an extra blocker or two, the geometry is the better choice.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby fafhrd » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:17 am

And again you keep going on about the door itself in spite of people who've actually attempted this positioning telling you that being on the door is a pretty minor part of the strat's benefit. I will say it again though so maybe you notice, being on the door is a pretty minor part of the strat's benefit. The real benefit is the raid never moving, and hence the majority of the raid being able to be brain dead as far as moving correctly goes, and just being required to spam DPS and heals well.

If you were objecting to the strat negating the need to move, you might have a case, although it'd be shot down pretty simply by pointing out that you don't need to be at a door or even on a wall to decide not to move - there are several strats that shield the majority of the raid from all orbs while standing in the open too - however since they're in the open they usually position on top of a portal to permit a switch at some point too. But you're not objecting to the lack of movement, you're objecting to positioning against a doorway which is a stupid thing to object to, that's not what makes the strat so popular. Dumbing down the fight is what makes the strat popular.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Anorian » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:18 am

Our strategy is slightly different,

We use the entire melee group and healers as black, while the casters are white in a circle around. Tank the 2 bosses next to each other on the white portal. Blow heroism on the white shield where melee has to swap, black shield goes down way before the timer. And use raidwall on the white vortexes. so only the casters swap on a vortex.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Serv » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:43 am

I blame my Raidleader every time we encounter the Twins for using the door strat and this week there were Orbs spanwning right there at the door.

Just wanted to mention that.

/edit:
They never spent a thought about it. We kept using this strat. We tank the Twins near to the wall and still have whitedps and black dps which roughly equal the same. The only advance we gain from being there at the wall, ist cutting the space from where orbs may hit the raid by roughly 2/3. The major disadvantage of this strat is the orb spawning right in the door, which will always hit our melee dps standing there. I'm still holding my position and say a regular tank it somewhere in the room is the more simple strat, just because everyone _can_ evade damage from orbs and everyone can soak enough orbs to get the stack up, which will probably result in the same raiddps.

Just my 2 cents.
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