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Paladin tanking guide

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Paladin tanking guide

Postby Karast » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:35 am

Hi guys,
I recently created a tankadin guild for my guildies and would like to get your feedback on it - don't want to provide bad info to them.
Would appreciate any comment/feedback (even bad ones).

Tanking in General:
Tanking in general is a role in a group that is responsible for managing agro. A tank is responsible for holding agro on all possible mobs so that they will never directly attack other players.
Having a tank holding agro on a mob/mobs/boss will minimize the damage that the raid takes and prevent unnecesery deaths. it also helps healers as they only have one target to heal instead of multiple targets.
Tanks have hight value of armor and HP and concentrate on gear that maximize their survivabilty (HP, armor, defence, avoidace=dodge/parry and block).
Tank skills and itemization alows tanks to survive longer than any other charecter against mobs (regular, elites and bosses).

Paladin tanking in General:
Paladin tanks (aka "Tankadins" or "Protadins") are well balanced tanks that utilizes high passive dmg reduction abilities in addition to good armor, good HP, lots of utilities (healing abilities, HoTs, DoTs, interupts etc) and extremly high levels of threats.
Tankadins are well known for their ability to hold agro (=high threat) on mobs due to the nature of the holy damage they produce. This is measured in TPS - threat per second and in general it is common to see Tankadins having 30%-60% more TPS then other tanks with the same level of gear.
Tankadins also can output an impressive level of DPS (relative to other tanks) - values of 2.5K - 3.5K DPS in raids is common.
Paladin tanks are one of two classes that can use a shield (the other one is warrior). The Tankadin mechanism allows them to block nearly all attacks and reduce small amounts of dmg (~2K dmg) from each blocked hit, which makes it easier for them to tank adds and trash.

Best uses for a Tankadin:
Currently (patch 3.2), Paladin tanks are the best tanks for most encounters (to a level that some considers us OP).
This is a hugh change from the TBC and vanila days when Palys were considered OTs at best.
Today paladins can tank every content in the game due to:
* our hugh damage mitigation - the addition of Ardent defender which produces a mini shield wall on us when we go below 30% health is great.
* our automaticlly triggered "guardian-spirit-like" ability (also from Ardent defender talent) that instantly heals us back to 30% health when we get to 0% (can proc onecs every 2 min).
* our abilities to downgrade the damage of the boss (Judgment of the just and Vindication talents).
* our utilities - we can remoev debuffs from ourself, support the healing, DoT the boss, interupt spellcasting (somewhat gimmped though) and so much more.
Generaly speaking though, we excel at:
* handling multiple mobs that are hitting at once - Tankadins can hold threat on multiple mobs and shield block will remove most of the adds damage (trash/add tanking).
* DPS races - we produce high DPS and high TPS relative to other tanks (well geared DK's can generate a similar amounts of DPS in certain specs).
* when threat is an issue - for example if the fight results in DPS being given super buffs that might cause them to overagro tanks, use a paly to save yourself the pain.

Specs:
There are 2 viable specs to use currently (patch 3.2).
MT spec
OT/Utility spec

The MT spec relies on having high DPS/TPS (especialy on HUD mobs - Humaniods, Undead and Deamons where it produces +200 TPS over seals of the pure spec). In this spec we go deep into retribution spec all the way to Crusade.
We take Vindication to reduce the boss's AP (will reduce it by around 600AP regardless of the text in the talent calculator I linked).
Reckoning is used to break the tier bariar in addition to allow us to apply vengence (from the seal) a little faster.
Spiritual Attunment gets only 1 point - as said, this is MT spec, we will be taking more then enough damage + divine plea => never be OOM.

The OT/Utility spec is also viable on non HUD movs - it actualy produces a little more TPS on them (~30 TPS, not justifying switching to it regularly IMO).
It also brings different utilities such as more frequant interupts (improved HoJ), divine sacrifice for high raid damage situations (bubble before using!!!).
It also goes for 2/2 Spiritual Attunment sinec you may not be getting hit that frequantly as OT.

Some tankadins advocate using the second spec on non-HUD (like ulduar or the northern beasts) mobs and the first on HUD mobs.
I find the MT spec very efficient in most situations and only switch to the second spec (I have 2 prot specs) when the utility is needed or when i have mana issues.

Stats:
Tankadins need the following:
540 defence in order to be un-critable (for bosses lv83). This is your number one priority.
High armor - this will provide you with a passive physical damage reduction. you will get it from the plate pieces you wear, IMO don't bother using any armor trinkets, they are not worth it.
High stamina - as much as you can. This will come at the expense of other stats (avoidance). Note that this is highly debateable issue (there are a lot of discussion on the subject in the Tankadin community) - I generaly prefer stamina over avoidance fro progression fights.
High avoidance - Dodge/Parry - if the boss doesnt hit you you don't take damage...simple but depends on luck. usualy comes at the expense of stamina (see above).
High strength - Touched by the light talent (the updated one) converts strength to SP. what you have on your items is enough.
Block rating/value - mmm...very problematic stats...block doesnt do much currently - it mitigates around 2K damage in good gear. Since it will come at the expense of avoidance I have to say ignore it. If you have some its nice, don't bother with it. If you get a few block pieces though you can save them to create a block set that can come in handy in some gimic fights (like loathab), add tanking, or for HCs.
Expertice - you need 22 epx. rating to be caped. this will prevent bosses from dodge/parry you => no parry haste attacks => mitigation stat. generaly you will be getting 10 exp. rating from the Seal of vengence glyph (will be covered later) and the rest you will easily get from the armor you have.
Hit rating - not very important acording to some, but IMO - don't neglect this - less hit rating means higher chances to miss a boss => less DPS/TPS. try to be around 200 if you can afford it.

stat priority: defence (until capped) > stamina > avoidance > expertice (until capped) > hit rating.

Gems:
Gem for defence until capped, then stamina and then avoidance (and hit if realy needed).
Meta socket - Austere Earthsiege Diamond - +32 stamina and 2% Increased Armor Value from Items.
Blue sockets - Solid Majestic Zircon - +30 stam.
Yellow sockets - Thick King's Amber - +20 def until capped, Rigid King's Amber - +20 hit if you are realy low on hit; hybrids otherwise.
all other - any hybrid gem that gives you +stamina is good. I recomend the def/stam(Enduring Eye of Zul) if defence is needed or any avoidance/stam ones otherwise (Defender's Dreadstone/Regal Dreadstone).

Enchants:
Bracers: +40 stamina (+90 stamina if Leatherworking)
Gloves: +18 stamina
Weapon: Mongoose (+200 agility procs for increased armor/dodge) or Blade ward (for parry procs).
Rings: +18 stamina (Enchanters only)
Head: 37 stamina 20 defence rating (Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector, Argent crusade)
Shoulders: +20 Dodge Rating and +15 Defense Rating (Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle, The Sons of Hodir) (+60 Dodge Rating and +15 Defense Rating if Inscription)
Cloak: 16 Defence or 225 armor
Chest: 275 stamina or 22 def
Pants: 55 stamina and 22 agility (Frosthide Leg Armor)
Boots: Tuskar's Vitality (moving around faster will help you to survive + will save you some points in the ret tree)

Rotation:
Tankadins uses a rotation called 969. This is named after the cooldown on our abilities. some of them have 6 sec cooldowns and othres 9 sec. when executed correctly you will never encouter a situation where all of your abilities are on cooldown (which result in loss of DPS/TPS).
A good example might be - Judgment (you should have at least 1 point in improved judgments) - 9 sec, SoR - 6 sec, holy shield - 9 sec, HotR - 6 sec, concecration - 9 sec, SoR again, judgments again, HotR again, concecration etc...
Opening moves:
Hand of reconing for single target - it creates a nice amount of damage if the target isn't attacking you currently so use it as an opening move.
Avenger shield - for multiple mobs, coupeld with concecration and hammer of the rightouse.

For all the old school palys that are still using Excorcism in their rotation or pull - for the love of god...stop it!

Glyphs:
Major:
Divine Plea - as long as it is active will provide +3% damage reduction (hint: should be active most of the time)
Hammer of the Righteous - will hit an additional target (to a total of 4).
Seal of vengeance - gives you +10 expertise rating while the seal is active.
Minor:
Lay on hands - shorten th cooldown by 5 min.
Sense undead - while sense undead is active you gain +1% damage on undead.
Blessing of kigns - makes the blessing 50% cheaper (mana wise).

Flasks/potions:
Flask of Stoneblood - +1300 HP.
Runic mana potions - you always seem to run out of mana at the wrong time...
Runic health potions - just in case.

Food:
Anything with stamina and AP is good (my favorite is fish feast).

Addons:
must have:
Omen - for monitoring threat.
DBM - for boss abilities.
Usefull:
Different raid frames - Bliz frames are horrible. I use Xperl.
Vuhdo or Healbot - map usefull abilities to those instead of heals (like taunting of someone that gets agro, bubble someone else etc).
Bartender - for better button alignment on screen.
Satrina's buff frames - for better management of buffs, debuffs and procs.
Recount - sometimes you have to make hard choises - which DPS will die...this will help you make sure that you save the right one.

Tips:
Always make sure that your Seal of vengence is up and that your righteous fury is up.
Before pulling activate Divine plea - more mana, more damage reduction.
Priest shields might make you mana starved, pay attention and coordinate with your healers when to shield and when not to.


For more questions, remarks feel free to contact me in game or via the forum.
Karast of Lightbringer.
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Re: Paladin tanking guide

Postby hoho » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:47 am

What about 30stam/15resi on shoulders?

For MT'ing I'm speccing into something like this atm: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... r-3e,10433
It'll be 2% less crit for 15% runspeed. With that you can use 22stam on boots and still run faster than with Tuskarr's. For red sockets agi/stam is generally better than dodge/stam. On cloak 22agi is another possibility. On weapon accuaricy is a very nice threat/dps enchant. For glyphs hammer one is generally useful only for trash. Alternatives are AD for +8% hit on taunts and extra mitigation cooldown from glyph of salvation.


Also, there is no defense cap, just minimum :-P
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Re: Paladin tanking guide

Postby vegardhv » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:03 am

Karast wrote:Expertice - you need 22 epx. rating to be caped. this will prevent bosses from dodge/parry you => no parry haste attacks => mitigation stat. generaly you will be getting 10 exp. rating from the Seal of vengence glyph (will be covered later) and the rest you will easily get from the armor you have.


If I'm not mistaken you need 26 expertise "skill" to remove boss dodges, and 56 to remove his parries (since you attack from in front of him). And don't mix expertise rating with skill. You get 10 expertise from the vengeance glyph, and that gives you something like an extra 82ish expertise rating, if I did the right calculations.
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Re: Paladin tanking guide

Postby Karast » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:42 am

The rating thing was a typo, but as for the rest of the info 26/56 I didn't know, Thanks :)
This is why I like this site, you never stop learning here :D
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Re: Paladin tanking guide

Postby Jedah » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:56 am

I'd suggest that you value hit over expertise, since several of your main threat rotation abilities cannot be dodged or parried but they CAN miss, such as shield slam and judgement.

The extra avoidance benefit from expertise that Theck discussed in his matheadache thread is probably a non-issue for someone that would make use of your guide.
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Re: Paladin tanking guide

Postby Karast » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:49 am

hoho wrote:What about 30stam/15resi on shoulders?

For MT'ing I'm speccing into something like this atm: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... r-3e,10433
It'll be 2% less crit for 15% runspeed. With that you can use 22stam on boots and still run faster than with Tuskarr's. For red sockets agi/stam is generally better than dodge/stam. On cloak 22agi is another possibility. On weapon accuaricy is a very nice threat/dps enchant. For glyphs hammer one is generally useful only for trash. Alternatives are AD for +8% hit on taunts and extra mitigation cooldown from glyph of salvation.


Also, there is no defense cap, just minimum :-P


Regarding the def cap - yeah, I know, I saw this terminology somewhere and liked it :)
Regarding the rest:
mmm... I don't think resi is any good for Tankadins in PVE...but then again I'm not an expert.
As for the spec you attached I still favor Tuskarr over the talent as I can spend the points on more valuable things. Regarding the agi use, I also have some doubts, I'm not a number cruncher but I believe that agi is less important than dodge/parry. And glyphs, well this is a matter of flavor but I myself find the hammer more useful.
(now comes the part where all the number crunchers jump me and tell me I'm talking nonsense but well, that's why I'm here :) )
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Re: Paladin tanking guide

Postby JU1CYFRU1T » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:12 am

Karast wrote:mmm... I don't think resi is any good for Tankadins in PVE...but then again I'm not an expert.
As for the spec you attached I still favor Tuskarr over the talent as I can spend the points on more valuable things. Regarding the agi use, I also have some doubts, I'm not a number cruncher but I believe that agi is less important than dodge/parry. And glyphs, well this is a matter of flavor but I myself find the hammer more useful.
(now comes the part where all the number crunchers jump me and tell me I'm talking nonsense but well, that's why I'm here :) )

Acording to Tankspot, 5 resilience = 3 defense (points... not rating).

With the PvP enchant to shoulders, you would be uncrittable (refuse to say capped) at 537 defense. I don't know where this information was originally from, but it was verified by Ciderhelm that with 537 defense and 15 resilience, you are crit-immune.

Therefore, by getting the PvP enchant, you are lowering your need for defense gear, AND you are getting the extra stamina.
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Re: Paladin tanking guide

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:03 pm

JU1CYFRU1T wrote:
Karast wrote:mmm... I don't think resi is any good for Tankadins in PVE...but then again I'm not an expert.
As for the spec you attached I still favor Tuskarr over the talent as I can spend the points on more valuable things. Regarding the agi use, I also have some doubts, I'm not a number cruncher but I believe that agi is less important than dodge/parry. And glyphs, well this is a matter of flavor but I myself find the hammer more useful.
(now comes the part where all the number crunchers jump me and tell me I'm talking nonsense but well, that's why I'm here :) )

Acording to Tankspot, 5 resilience = 3 defense (points... not rating).

With the PvP enchant to shoulders, you would be uncrittable (refuse to say capped) at 537 defense. I don't know where this information was originally from, but it was verified by Ciderhelm that with 537 defense and 15 resilience, you are crit-immune.

Therefore, by getting the PvP enchant, you are lowering your need for defense gear, AND you are getting the extra stamina.

Correct, resilience does contribute to you being uncrittable in PVE, it does not decrease the damage you take in PVE like it does in PVP. Defense does more than decrease your chance to be crit though, it also increases your dodge/parry/block/miss chance and so it is quite superior to resilience in a straight up comparison. For the enchant though, it's really comparing the stamina on the PVP enchant to defense on the PVE enchant. That's really going to be a personal preference for the most part.
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Re: Paladin tanking guide

Postby Viycktor » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:48 pm

"Chest: 275 stamina or 22 def"

Should be 275 health.
If there's a 275 stamina to chest enchant I've been missing out on I'm gonna be pissed. ;)

And why not blood drinker as a weapon enchant option? (Or straight agility for that matter)
I know that enchant/gemming is practically another forum unto itself, but from a beginner tank perspective, is mongoose really a no-brainier enchant?
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Re: Paladin tanking guide

Postby Arcand » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:30 am

Viycktor wrote:"Chest: 275 stamina or 22 def"

Should be 275 health.
If there's a 275 stamina to chest enchant I've been missing out on I'm gonna be pissed. ;)


Just don't ask what the materials are.
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