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Block Value VS Avoidance

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Block Value VS Avoidance

Postby Stripperella » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:33 pm

I am having trouble comparing the two, mostly in regards to T9 Helm and Legs.

I'm trying to compare purely survivability if threat were a non issue.

I have been comparing by taking the average damage the hardest hitting bosses deal per melee swing, is this a bad model? For example, assume every swing is 20k damage. To compare 1% avoidance to 350 BV i was giving the 1% avoidance as being worth 200 less damage on average, where 350 BV would be comparable to 1.75% avoidance.

As far as i know Avoidance and BV are both useful and worthless in the same scenarios except for maybe enrage timers where -350 dmg is still dead, and no dmg is staying alive.

Have i missed something obvious? Has someone already compared various ranks of t9 head/legs to their BiS counterparts? A link would be appreciated if so.
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Re: Block Value VS Avoidance

Postby EderX » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:47 pm

What your referring to is the debate over Effective Health VS Avoidance in gearing priority.

Theres a big debate going on over here:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic
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Re: Block Value VS Avoidance

Postby Stripperella » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:16 pm

Is it the same? I am trying to get help comparing one type of damage reduction to another.

Health itself is a non issue in regards to T9 helm and legs at the ranks that are obtainable for me. Their non-set counterparts at the same ilvl are identical in # of sockets and stamina.

I was looking for a general answer to if i am missing a mechanic that would skew it one way or another, or just messed up calculating period.

But if anyone is interested I am comparing T9 245ilvl helm and legs to: Faceplate of the Honorbound and Legguards of Feverish Dedication. Quantifying net avoid including expertise parry-haste reduction for legguards and comparing against T9's substantial BV is what i am most interested in.

Again, this is ignoring any threat advantage one might have over the other.
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Re: Block Value VS Avoidance

Postby EderX » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:25 pm

Stripperella wrote:
I'm trying to compare purely survivability if threat were a non issue.

I have been comparing by taking the average damage the hardest hitting bosses deal per melee swing, is this a bad model? For example, assume every swing is 20k damage. To compare 1% avoidance to 350 BV i was giving the 1% avoidance as being worth 200 less damage on average, where 350 BV would be comparable to 1.75% avoidance.

As far as i know Avoidance and BV are both useful and worthless in the same scenarios except for maybe enrage timers where -350 dmg is still dead, and no dmg is staying alive.


It is the same debate.
Health and Effective Health are not the same thing.

BV is part of Effective Health.

Check out the thread I linked, its long, but you may find some useful information in there.

If you really want a cut and dry answer about which is better....there isn't one.

Some prefer Avoidance, some prefer Effective Health. I believe T9 content is favoring EH at the moment (just based on the thread above, which you should go read.)
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Re: Block Value VS Avoidance

Postby Stripperella » Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:09 pm

Can BV be called EH? If it is it's is atleast as situational as avoidance, considering any affect that bypasses avoidance (the main point of stacking stam) bypasses BV.

Regardless general gearing philosophy doesn't really answer anything for me on how to quantify BV vs Avoidance. But thanks for the reply.
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Re: Block Value VS Avoidance

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:17 pm

Stripperella wrote:Can BV be called EH? If it is it's is atleast as situational as avoidance, considering any affect that bypasses avoidance (the main point of stacking stam) bypasses BV.

Regardless general gearing philosophy doesn't really answer anything for me on how to quantify BV vs Avoidance. But thanks for the reply.

If you are blocking every hit, which we can generally do with holy shield active, then yes it often is considered into EH similar to the way your armor is. On certain mobs where there's a good bit of damage that bypasses block then you do have to keep that in mind. Most bosses do have at least some portion of damage that can, but the danger from that damage varies greatly.

You can't specifically quantify an answer to your question though because it depends on the size of the hits you are taking and the frequency, so it'll vary from encounter to encounter, and even then you are comparing a known fixed reduction to an averaged over time reduction.
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Re: Block Value VS Avoidance

Postby Thels » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:50 am

Also keep in mind that while the Tier helmets are about even to the Nontier helmets dropping in ToC, the helmet dropping from onyxia25 actually has quite a bit more stamina on it. Onyxia25 is quite doable for anyone debating T9 pieces.

Avoidance is never reliable. Block Value is reliable if you can block cap. The funny thing is that you need avoidance for block value to be reliable (or Block Rating, but that would be kind of a wasted stat).

If I had to choose between avoidance and block value with no other factors included, I'd go for avoidance until block capped, and the block value.
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Re: Block Value VS Avoidance

Postby Stripperella » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:13 pm

Onyxia has more sta sure, but the BV on t9 helm is almost as much off every hit (that it applies to). Seems better but i am no math god (hence the original intent of this post). I was going to just get 1/5 set items to be swapped for another item that had avoid if needed, probably go with the legs instead of helm as it is more clear that one is EH and one is avoid.

But tbh at this point i will take what drops and be happy.
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Re: Block Value VS Avoidance

Postby repent » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:43 am

The relative value of BV vs avoidance is one thing, the value of pure stamina to BV is really completely different. For most fights, I would prefer the static stamina to block value. You are really asking, with that question, isn't it better to knock off 30 stam worth of damage from every attack, rather then have 30 stamina? The problem with framing the question that way, is that in actual progression raid settings, it doesnt work that way. So much depends on your raid's strengths and mostly the fight itself. When balancing stamina vs. block value, you really have to ask yourself what is killing you, if anything.

If you never die on progression fights under any circumstance, then I would probably go with block value. Why not shave off healing requirements and even out some damage. However, during progression fights, where things can still kill us, the question that needs to be answered is what is killing me? How are heals coming in? What is the fight mechanic that is causing me the most damage? Most importantly to me, what is the thing that is most likely to kill me.
Personally, for Northrend heroic 25, it is most likely a stun, or the stacking debuff coupled with fire damage and/or poision spew. For Jarraxus, if I miss my self-cleanse and get hit by a convergance of elementals, for twins (well have almost always been the last person standing and waiting to die, but if there was a threat it would mostly be magical) In all of the above situations, I would rather have the static stamina, For HM ANUB, however, I would prefer extra block value set, with much higher block ratings to maintain unhittable vs. the adds with holy shield down.

To make a long post short, just understand the considerations and make appropriate gearing choices for your individual tanking situations.
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Re: Block Value VS Avoidance

Postby Maelsstrom » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:42 am

OP: I agree with how you're comparing avoidance and BV. I do the same when comparing gear. Over a reasonably long fight, both avoidance and BV translate into less damage taken. As mentioned above, people have varying preferences, but mathematically they can and do translate directly into statistical expectations of damage. For my "everyday" gear selection, I personally use a "reasonably big, repetitive attack" hit as the proxy for all damage. Right now I use a 19k post-armor (which I work back into raw hit pre-armor so that I can factor how good a point of armor is worth). One of the oft-repeated mantras on here is to make sure you have enough health/block/avoidance ets to take at least 2.5 hits and 19k fits decently with that, given about 46k raidbuffed health in ten man heroics.

For overall gear assessment and selection, I calculate three numeric ratings that can be weighted and summed up to get a total gear score. First is damage reduction by armor, BV, BR (lol), dodge, parry and expertise. The only one I REALLY struggle with making a non-zero factor is Block Rating, because very often it is indeed worthless, but there are also many occasions where holy shield is not up 100% of the time, so there is some value.

Second is health pool, which is just stamina. Third is threat, which I use Theck's threat values for stats verbatim. I can weight the three components and adjust as experience dictates. It's effective, but it oversimplifies (neglects magic attacks, neglects that not every hit is a single big hit on a set swing speed, neglects prioritization, raid buffs, and is very boolean about whether ratings are under or over a particular cap (hit, exp, etc)).
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