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Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:31 am

I may add a brief paragraph to mention Crushing Blows just for the sake of completeness. I left them out of the initial version of the guide since they aren't relevant to end-game tanking anymore. But it might be nice to have it in there just for posterity's sake.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby æ » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:09 pm

Not entirely true. Its when you're fighting something four levels above you. Typically when you're doing that, you'll be more worried about running away than attack tables (if elite)! :D
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Arcand » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:27 pm

æ wrote:Not entirely true. Its when you're fighting something four levels above you. Typically when you're doing that, you'll be more worried about running away than attack tables (if elite)! :D


Good material for an appendix, but I agree with not having it in the body text. New guys who come here to learn the basics don't need the extra complication. :)
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Re: BT101: Rating Conversions

Postby lythac » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:54 am

Is it worth mentioning (under BT101: Rating Conversions and Caps) Expertise does not truncate?

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t38095-rete ... ost1078466


With the crushing blows, mob does not need to be 4 levels above you, crushing blows occur when boss weapon skill is greater than your base def skill by at least 16.

Theckd wrote:For each level above 80, the boss gains 0.2% chance to crit and reduces the chance for his target to avoid or block an attack by 0.2%.


The 0.2% increased crit chance per level comes from boss weapon skill being 5 higher, 5 * 0.04. Mobs increased avoidance chance of 0.2% per level works the same way.
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Re: BT101: Rating Conversions

Postby xstratax » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:19 pm

Lythac wrote:Is it worth mentioning (under BT101: Rating Conversions and Caps) Expertise does not truncate?

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t38095-rete ... ost1078466


With the crushing blows, mob does not need to be 4 levels above you, crushing blows occur when boss weapon skill is greater than your base def skill by at least 16.

Theckd wrote:For each level above 80, the boss gains 0.2% chance to crit and reduces the chance for his target to avoid or block an attack by 0.2%.


The 0.2% increased crit chance per level comes from boss weapon skill being 5 higher, 5 * 0.04. Mobs increased avoidance chance of 0.2% per level works the same way.


Thorim's Unbalancing Strike would qualify you for Crushing blows then, as would Razuvious' Unbalancing Strike
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Wrathy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:39 am

Just a clarification: Correct me if I am wrong, but Thorim's Unbalancing strike itself would not count as a crushing blow. Any attack taken when under the effects of the secondary debuff would be subject to crushing blows as your defense is reduced by 200 as an effect of the strike's debuff.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:50 am

Neither of those are true, in fact. Lythac's wording was subtle, but correct:
Lythac wrote:With the crushing blows, mob does not need to be 4 levels above you, crushing blows occur when boss weapon skill is greater than your base def skill by at least 16.
(emphasis mine).

Thorim's debuff does not change your base defense skill.

The test should be fairly easy though: find a single instance of Thorim performing a crushing blow on a tank. If you can't, then it's base defense skill that matters, not net defense skill.

I need to do a quick revision of this so I can get it posted in the Guides section of the site. I plan on adding most of the suggestions made so far. I'll try and post a changelog so people can more easily pick out errors in the new text.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby xstratax » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:13 pm

Thorims debuff lowers Def by 200, would that not effect base Def, as uncrittable is only 140 over normal base Def...or does it only lower your Def rating by 200 or cant lower it past 400?

Also I didnt mean that those strikes were able to crush Wrathy, only that their effect could open you to potential crushes.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby lythac » Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:03 am

level 80 vs ?? with 144 defense skill from gear -

?? has weapon skill of 415 vs 80.

Code: Select all
Base def  def from gear  UB strike   Total
  400         +144                    544    Uncrittable, Uncrushable
  400         +144         -200       344    Crittable, Uncrushable
  399         +144                    543    Uncrittable, Crushable
  399         +144         -200       343    Crittable, Crushable


Pretty sure this is how it works, base def never gets touched.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby xstratax » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:04 am

Right, that would certainly be to the tank (and healer)'s benefit
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Re: BT101: Rating Conversions

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:39 pm

Lythac wrote:
Theckd wrote:For each level above 80, the boss gains 0.2% chance to crit and reduces the chance for his target to avoid or block an attack by 0.2%.


The 0.2% increased crit chance per level comes from boss weapon skill being 5 higher, 5 * 0.04. Mobs increased avoidance chance of 0.2% per level works the same way.


Revision:
Theck wrote:For each level above 80, the boss gains 5 weapon skill, granting him an additional 0.2% chance to crit and reducing the chance for his target to avoid or block an attack by 0.2%. Thus, we've now got a 5.6% chance to be crit, and our chance to dodge, parry, block, and miss are now 9.4%, 9.4%, 9.4% and 4.4% respectively:
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Re: BT101: Rating Conversions

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:45 pm

Lythac wrote:Is it worth mentioning (under BT101: Rating Conversions and Caps) Expertise does not truncate?

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t38095-rete ... ost1078466

Revision: Underneath the expertise and defense sections, I've added a note about truncation.
Theck wrote:
  • Note that defense rating truncates, in that defense rating that doesn't bump you up to a new value of defense skill is "wasted". In other words, you get no avoidance benefit by going from 689 to 690 defense rating, whereas you do see a benefit going from 688 to 689.

  • Note that expertise skill does not truncate (unlike defense), despite not showing decimals on the character sheet. Thus, every point of expertise rating gives you a benefit, even if you're only going from 10 to 10.1 expertise skill.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:12 pm

Lythac wrote:level 80 vs ?? with 144 defense skill from gear -

?? has weapon skill of 415 vs 80.

Code: Select all
Base def  def from gear  UB strike   Total
  400         +144                    544    Uncrittable, Uncrushable
  400         +144         -200       344    Crittable, Uncrushable
  399         +144                    543    Uncrittable, Crushable
  399         +144         -200       343    Crittable, Crushable


Pretty sure this is how it works, base def never gets touched.

Looks like we were wrong:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4075 ... blows.html

Satrina wrote:Crushing blows are not nearly the factor now than they were in vanilla WoW and Burning Crusade. The big change in WoW 3.0 is that only mobs that are 4 levels higher than you can perform crushing blows*. Most raid tanks will never see one happen now as the tank will be level 80 and the world bosses are level 83. Here's the scoop on crushing blows anyway for completeness:


- Crushing blows hit for 150% damage
- Players never land crushing blows
- Only white damage (autoattacks) can be crushing blows. Spells and specials like Mortal Strike or Mighty Smash cannot be crushing blows
- Your chance to take a crushing blow is always checked against your level maximum of (5 x level) (from here: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> 20/04/05 Agility, Strength, Defense and AP)
- If your defense skill is at your level maximum, then mobs 4 or more levels above your level can land crushing blows with a basic 15% chance to do so.
- For every point of defense skill (not defense rating!) you are under 5 times your level, the chance of a crushing blow increases by 2%. (This has the side effect of having crushing blows landing even from same-level mobs if your defense score is much lower than your level maximum.)
- Defense from gear ONLY affects your chance to receive crushing blows if your defense skill is lower than 5 times your level (but it always gives all the benefits of increased dodge, parry, block, as well as reduction in chance to be critically hit)
- Defense skill added by gear does not affect your chance to receive crushing blows past 5 x level - you have the same chance to receive a crushing blow at 600 defense as you do at 400 defense (unless, of course, you have enough total avoidance to push crushing blows off the combat table.)

Some examples:


- A level 80 with 400 defense and no gear with defense rating on it has a 15% chance of getting a crushing blow from a level 84 mob
- A level 80 with 350 defense and gear with 200 defense rating on it has a 15% chance of getting a crushing blow from a level 84 mob
- A level 74 with 325 defense and no gear with defense rating on it has a 15% chance of getting a crushing blow from a level 78 mob
- A level 70 with 299 defense and no gear with defense rating on it has a 17% chance of getting a crushing blow from a level 64 mob

* As in past, it is surmised that "+4 levels" actually means "20 weapon skill higher than your level maximum defense skill". Since the adds in Thorim's arena crush level 80 players with Unbalancing Strike, this theory seems to be supported still. It also appears that Thorim himself has had crushing blows totally disabled.


I've included this information in the new Appendix on crushing blows. Going to give people a day or two to read over this before I post it in the Guides section.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Wrathy » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:56 pm

sorry to derail the thread, but Theck, you are now officially Leet.

Nice post count...
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:52 am

Wrathy wrote:sorry to derail the thread, but Theck, you are now officially Leet.

Nice post count...

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Sadly, I had to post things this morning, so it was short-lived.
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