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Rising Tankadin needing advice

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Rising Tankadin needing advice

Postby Lightskin » Thu May 31, 2007 2:35 am

Ok, so I've finally hit 70, which no plans of being main tank, but now I have prematurely been thrown this position due to competent warriors and trustworthy people.

With that being said, how do I go about convincing my guild that a Paladin will be able to tank? Most have never seen anything tank before except a Warrior in 'serious' raid situations, with the exception of a druid here and there.... If someone can tell me how I should approach my guild when we start raids, that would be awesome.

My main concern is people in my guild think Paladins can't tank beyond Kara, or even beyond 5 mans. I anticipate people to say 'wtf where are the warriors' when I start the invites.

Anticipated Misconceptions:
- Warriors are the best tanks
- Paladins are not tanks
- Unable to attain uncrushable status
- Lower HP = bad tank
- Waste of a healbot

Just want to hear some .02 from guilds or people who have experienced similar issues. I still have some gearing up to do, but I am just trying to prepare for the worst scenario possible.

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http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/chara ... =Lightskin
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Postby Lightskin » Thu May 31, 2007 2:42 am

ok im going to bed now, writing posts at 6 am = bad
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Postby Maulininis » Thu May 31, 2007 5:11 am

Warriors are the best tanks in certain situations.

Paladins are not ONLY tanks.

Paladins CAN obtain uncrushable status, and hold it in 10 second chunks.

Lower HP = DISADVANTAGED, not bad, tank.

If you need a tank, then its a waste not letting someone who can tank, tank.

As for getting round them, spec 0/49/12 and kick ass. If you pull say a fight like prince flawlessly, people's jaws drop. Shocking them out of their misconceptions in one brilliant display is what worked for me.
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Postby anariana » Thu May 31, 2007 5:13 am

Anticipated Misconceptions:

- Warriors are the best tanks

Well, I guess this pretty much comes from ages of warrior-monopoly on tanking as well as the reasons below. What you can do is try to improve the things below, the rest will hopefully clear up if we prove to be viable maintanks and stay that way that way for a longer amount of time.

- Paladins are not tanks

If the thing is that they fear that paladins can't tank in general, prevent this by getting some of them to do an instance with you, preferably one you're comfortable with. Being the King of 5-mans, you should at least be able to change that misconception. If your healer is up for it, using consecrate to tanks the adds as well as the riftekeepers in BM should impress for someone who hasn't witnessed paladin tanking in it's full glory.
If you fear they think that paladins are not viable raid tanks, then it's the same as "Warriors are the best tanks". You'll probably have to remove other missconceptions and hope that time will prove you right.

- Unable to attain uncrushable status

Well, the best way to solve this is by getting uncrushable. I doubt they would upright accuse you of lying and if they do they could check your gear in armory and do the maths themselves.
If you need some time to atain it, I would recomend that you perhaps make an uncrushable profile, showing what gear you need and thereby proving that it isn't unattainable.

- Lower HP = bad tank

Possible that you could sell the argument "We're more stable at uncrushable" but HP is more tangible, and other people tend to focus more on it.

- Waste of a healbot

This might depend on your group policies on forcing/encouraging people to respec. Might be an issue if you have a lot of warriors and are low on mainhealers. But really, it shouldn't be more of an issue than "Warrior tanks are a waste of melee dps." Of course, dps are easier to come by than healers, sadly
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Re: Rising Tankadin needing advice

Postby Karathos » Thu May 31, 2007 5:20 am

Lightskin wrote:Anticipated Misconceptions:
- Warriors are the best tanks
- Paladins are not tanks
- Unable to attain uncrushable status
- Lower HP = bad tank
- Waste of a healbot


You will get loads of people with these misconceptions.

You may even get guild leaders who have these misconceptions and want to 'force you into the back of the raid'. If that becomes an issue, then you have two possibilities to look at this.

First, that you've been diligently gearing yourself as a tank/dps type, or that you've already buckled and have no tank gear, and only healing gear.

To start out with, make sure that you can get the gear for 485 (for heroics/5-man content) defense, and tank as much as you can. Group with guildies in every 5 man guild group you can get your hands on.

'Cheat' if you will and throw BoK/BoSanc on yourself (as needed for HP/threat) and throw Salvation on everyone else except the rogue (who has feint and vanish) and if you have a good hunter (who will FD to drop agro at the drop of a hat) [you can give them might for the added dps].

If you have spec'd deep enough into Retribution to get Sanctity Aura (for the additional +threat generation) then run with that. If you're running normal 5 man content, then you could also use Retribtion Aura (for the threat return from being hit), or if you _really_ need it, Devotion Aura (threat is better in 5 man content, except potentially heroics).

Make sure you can pick yourself up a +spell damage weapon, like the Continuum Blade from the Keepers of Time. (Solid comparatively inexpensive +spell damage weapon, that is quite nice).

But the issue is getting your guildies to group with you, get yourself a solid healer (holy paladin, or holy priest ... druids are nice too, and resto shamans are solid) and go. Picking up a 'cc' type class that you always drag along is excellent as well. Perhaps a frost mage or rogue or even a hunter who runs lots of traps.

If you make your own groups to start out with, you're one step up.

How many times have you seen 'Need Tank/Healer for X and then good to go!'?

Sitting in the back row, and not doing what you want to do will only cause issues if you let it. But you have to get out and tank (or dps, or heal as you prefer).

Not to denigrade tanking, but heck, if you don't want to tank as a paladin there is an absolutely amazing guide by Exavier, a retribution paladin who has two guides on dps'ing as a paladin.

Like the guides we have for protection, he has two guides. One for gearing for the retribution role, one for doing it in end gamecontent.

You have to make the steps, and tank (or dps or heal) your way into whatever position you want. Once you have the basic gear for your job, it is all skill. So work on your skills and go from there!
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Re: Rising Tankadin needing advice

Postby ulushnar » Thu May 31, 2007 5:52 am

Karathos wrote:'Cheat' if you will and throw BoK/BoSanc on yourself (as needed for HP/threat) and throw Salvation on everyone else except the rogue (who has feint and vanish) and if you have a good hunter (who will FD to drop agro at the drop of a hat) [you can give them might for the added dps].


Feign Death's only nice if you use it pro-actively, ie before you get the aggro. Unless you have no latency and superhumanely fast reactions, if you feign after you get aggro, it's usually too late.

I always Bless Salvation on all DPSers anyway in five-mans. I usually bless healers with it unless they ask for Wisdom, since Healers don't normally have to start healing me until I've got a good head of aggro anyway. Simply put, any aggro head-start I can get is good, and having played a Hunter, I can't honestly understand how any DPSer would object to less threat being generated.

Ok, it doesn't directly boost your damage in the way a BoK or BoM might, but by giving you more aggro headroom before you need to use your aggro reduction/wipes.

Last night I was helping a Hunter acquaintance with an SV run. We had a Holydin with us as well, so I did Kings on everyone and she did Salv on the DPSers and Wisdom on us. The hunter immediately freaked and said "don't give me Salvation, I don't need it!"

After a few moments of him whining, she relented and gave him Might. On the First Bog Giant pull, he overaggros early and the mob starts going for him (he's standing right next to the healer). By the time he feigns the mob is already wailing on him and I manage to get an RD off and drag it out of the group.

He tried to make light of it, but after that he got Salvation and he didn't complain.
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Postby Lightskin » Thu May 31, 2007 6:10 am

Thanks for the feedback. seeing as I've done kara as a warlock, but it's been like 3 months since I've done any progression so we will see how this goes.

As far as pre-gear goes I have what I need, except the libram and a few other things, I was thinking about replacing defense rocks with dodge rocks to obtain uncrushable.
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Postby Minn » Thu May 31, 2007 3:27 pm

You might try working your way up. I haven't MTed Kara yet, but I'm sure my guildies would give me a shot. Reason being: I've run heroics with all our best healers. They're comfortable keeping me up. DPS folks like grouping with tanks that can not only frontload threat, but toss blessings around as well.

Anyway, I'd suggest getting in to 5-mans with your guildmates whenever possible. Suggest Heroic mode if everyone is up for it. After a night or two of watching you take a beating for them, they should be convinced enough to at least let you take a shot in KZ. Good luck.
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Re: Rising Tankadin needing advice

Postby Everlight » Thu May 31, 2007 4:40 pm

I have to admit, I was in a great position with my guild when I started tanking. I have a great GM and a bunch of fantastic, open-minded guildmates who gave me a go in the 5-mans. That's where I got the chance to really prove myself before hitting Karazhan. So by the time we hit Kara, everyone in the Guild knew I could take a hit, knew I could hold aggro, and was confident that I'd be fine.

Enough about that, on with the rebuttals.

Paladins are not tanks

Obviously false. A tank can be defined in WoW as a class with high mitigation, abilities which increase their threat, and a taunt. Paladins have all of them. We're tanks.

Unable to attain uncrushable status

Completely false.

Lower HP = bad tank

Totally arbitrary definition. How low is "lower HP"? Does this mean that a Druid is a better tank than a Warrior because they have more HP? Does this mean that a SL Warlock is a better tank than a Warrior because they often have more HP?

Hitpoints alone does not the tank make.

Waste of a healbot

A Paladin tank is only a "waste" of a healbot if a) you don't need a tank, b) the person concerned is appropriately geared to be a healer, and c) would play a full-time healer.

On to other matters

The main problem you will encounter is getting past the initial prejudice. Part of this prejudice is a lovely thing called confirmation bias. Every time a Warrior tank dies, people say "Wow, this encounter is hard!". Every time a Paladin tank dies, people say "See? Paladins can't tank!".

You're battling against confirmation bias. As a result, don't go into encounters half-prepared. Make sure you are fully prepared for every encounter you go into, so you smash it. Don't go into Karazhan before you're ready, get ready first and then go in and smash it.

The only way you can stop confirmation bias is to present people with repeated examples that contradict their expectations, and no data that confirms their expectations.
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Postby Lightskin » Thu May 31, 2007 5:47 pm

Just tanked my first SL Heroic and had one wipe on the mind control boss. He MC'ed within the first 5 seconds and and 3 people went down. Turned into the healer + me staying up for 5 minutes...lol.


We attempted again then cleared the rest of the instance no problem...I am now 8~9% away from being uncrushable with holy shield up!
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Postby Ayasune » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:01 am

Well...i can talk from the position of leading a rading guild...and there are some things you'll have to mention in this matter.

A Paladin is a potential Healer, fact. So, if you decide to go for a Protection Paladin, you will have to give up other Class Spots. That's for every hybrid class such as Shadow Priests, DD Shamans or Feral Druids. Simple reason: You HAVE to bring your certain amount of healers, no matter what.
So you'll have to decide: Is our throughout Guild Lineup like we can switch one tank-spot, mostly a warriors Spot, up to a Paladin?
Example given: We just had about 6 active Warriors in our guild some time ago, where 3 Warriors used to spec def...there wasn't any need for more tanks.

And then things started to change: Lots of our Warrios quit World of Warcraft, so there's lack of tanks. Now there was the time to think about "how" you can bring your squad back to sustain enough potential tanks for encounters like Magtheridon, Hydross...whereever lots of tanks are needed. That's where we mentioned a protection paladin, and i decided to reroll and give it a try.

But why a Paladin? Cause for one reason most of the hybrid players use to forget: It's a hybrid Class. Yeah, i'll be able to tank, even to keep my position as Maintank 2 along with our beloved Warrior-Maintank, but i'm still a hybrid class. If things change some day, i can be a valuable healer, whenever needed. That's what makes a paladin tremendously valuable for a raiding guild, especially in Burning Crusade, where flexibilty is one important key to success (if you're not goin' for raidstacking).
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Postby Ignus » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:24 am

first off, ayasune, your avatar is too sexy for words. Second, what you say is true, the only downside is people who do not want to heal. I, for example, do not like healing. I'm not going to respec holy ever again unless there are extenuating circumstances.

So while the ability to be a healer if I respec is indeed a strength, sometimes that strength is not an option for the player behind the paladin.
If you invest all of your talents, all of your gear, all of your knowledge and skill into tanking, you should be the best tank.
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Postby Ayasune » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:52 am

Ignus wrote:first off, ayasune, your avatar is too sexy for words


*giggle* thanks...it's just my sweet paladina herself, called Ayasune ^^

And for reply...maybe sounding rude, but...imo a player who choses to play a hybrid class, or any other class, should have focus on all aspects and abilities of his character. But right: Whatsoever is your favorite Spec and jobs to do is up to you :)
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