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Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

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Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Zothor » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:47 am

I've noticed what I thought were just bugs or inconsistencies in the AD proc, and how it works, when it works, and whether it saves my life. I wanted to compare notes with other people regarding it.

First, there are times I could swear it doesn't even go off. I will be dead and res without the debuff. This is EXTREMELY rare, but I think it's happened 3-4 times since the patch.

Second... while I (like many) have played around with things since the patch to test what it will save you on (taking a rocket strike on mimiron just because is FUN)... yesterday, Koralon (with a crazy number of stacks up) whacked me for 40k damage and I died outright. No proc. no save. No nothing.

Is this a symptom of the first effect? Or has AD save been hotfixed/hotbroken to be leapfroggable like the old AD?

I saw a similar effect the other day in TOC on Anub-25. I was around 10k health, and got hit for around 30. I saw a big absorb in there, but that should (I thought) have been the damage mitigation component. Then I died. At the time, i wondered if the issue was that health+the percentage from the save was still < incoming damage, but previously (see: Mimiron test) the save applied AFTER the damage came in, so the size of the hit that killed you was irrelevant. That doesn't seem to be the case for me the past week. Has anyone else noticed this? Is it flukey serverlag, where the damage isn't actually hitting me until after the "save" has added my extra health, consequently getting us screwed? Or is it an insanely rare bug that I just so happen to have been hit in the face with a few times?

I'm curious what other people's observations of our "second cooldown" have been. The damage mitigation component is insanely OP right now, but I feel like can't TRUST the save like I could trust having an actual second cooldown, because sometimes it just seems to be not working.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Shalcker » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:06 am

As far as i remember it works differently for "one-shot" and "killing blow from within AD range" scenarios.
First one negates hit completely then sets your health to 30% of your max hp.
Second one substracts your current hp from incoming hit, then substracts 30% of your max hp from that (for 540+ defense), and if after that you still end up negative you die anyway.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Zothor » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:17 am

Shalcker wrote:As far as i remember it works differently for "one-shot" and "killing blow from within AD range" scenarios.
First one negates hit completely then sets your health to 30% of your max hp.
Second one substracts your current hp from incoming hit, then substracts 30% of your max hp from that (for 540+ defense), and if after that you still end up negative you die anyway.


I was under the impression there were very few "one shot" abilities that were specifically coded that way - i.e. things you can't bubble through, etc. AD doesn't seem to work at all on them, nor do I think it's supposed to.

Something like shockwave/rocket strike on mim though, is just a huge amount of incoming damage. True, there's no other good way to survive it to the face in current content, but it does get reduced by mitigation, spell reductions, etc.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Shalcker » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:23 am

There are some abilities coded as "instant death" instead of "huge damage" (for example "Divine Intervention", which also doesn't proc Ardent Defender). They have special combatlog entry for that too.

This is not "one-shot" as there is no "shot" present, you just die, and usually in quite predictable way too.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Chicken » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:25 am

It usually work well for outright one-shots due to massive damage, but will occasionally just not proc when you get two hits quickly after each other from what I've personally noticed. It's definitely not a case where you get set to 30% of your health and then additional overkill damage gets removed: Otherwise it wouldn't save you from Mimiron's rockets and their few million damage dealt. I've seen it happen once or twice that I had died yet didn't have the AD debuff, but it's very rare.

How the mechanic seems to work is that if a blow would kill you, instead enough damage gets absorbed so you get set to 30% health. If you were below 30% health already when the hit that procced happened, all damage gets absorbed, and you get healed for enough to get set to 30% of your health.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Zothor » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:51 am

Chicken wrote:How the mechanic seems to work is that if a blow would kill you, instead enough damage gets absorbed so you get set to 30% health. If you were below 30% health already when the hit that procced happened, all damage gets absorbed, and you get healed for enough to get set to 30% of your health.


This is a really interesting theory, and it feels, admittedly without looking at any logs or data, to fit with what I've experienced. This would, oddly enough, be the return of the leapfrog. Just a much BIGGER leapfrog. If this is the case, now, if you take a 65ish% hit at 31%, you're dead anyhow, but at 29% you'd be back up to 30%.

Sound like what you were saying?

edit: this mechanic, probably copied over from GS, would also explain why GS occasionally fails to save the player.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Marrus » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:10 am

Zothor wrote:If this is the case, now, if you take a 65ish% hit at 31%, you're dead anyhow, but at 29% you'd be back up to 30%.


At 31%, the 65% hit would have 64% absorbed, so you would be left with 30% health. At 29%, all damage would be absorbed and you would be healed for 1% and again be left at 30% health. No leapfrog possible in either case.

The comparison to GS is true, though: if/when it fails, it's a bug caused by server side timing issues (which is why GS fails on rare occasions), not a flaw in the intended design.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Chicken » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:16 am

What Marrus is saying is what I was getting at yes.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Zothor » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:59 am

Marrus wrote:
Zothor wrote:The comparison to GS is true, though: if/when it fails, it's a bug caused by server side timing issues (which is why GS fails on rare occasions), not a flaw in the intended design.


Mmkay. Then, let's ask the tough question - Now that we've tested this in a live scenario, in regular modes, in hard modes... do we still think this solves our 2nd Cooldown problem if it's not reliable? Leave out the fact that we're stupidly durable at the moment because of the OP nature of the damage reduction component... the GS save was, from what everyone seemed to be in agreement on, blizzard's solution to "not giving paladins a warmed over Last Stand."

If it doesn't WORK, is the problem solved?
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Spectrum » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:00 pm

Zothor wrote:
Marrus wrote:
Zothor wrote:The comparison to GS is true, though: if/when it fails, it's a bug caused by server side timing issues (which is why GS fails on rare occasions), not a flaw in the intended design.


Mmkay. Then, let's ask the tough question - Now that we've tested this in a live scenario, in regular modes, in hard modes... do we still think this solves our 2nd Cooldown problem if it's not reliable? Leave out the fact that we're stupidly durable at the moment because of the OP nature of the damage reduction component... the GS save was, from what everyone seemed to be in agreement on, blizzard's solution to "not giving paladins a warmed over Last Stand."

If it doesn't WORK, is the problem solved?


There are a lot of times I hit LoH, the cooldown gets used, but the person (perhaps myself) dies anyway. In general it's been very reliable for me. Though it is annoying that it gets in the way of intentionally wiping.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Jasari » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:17 pm

The "I saw an ability behaving weird" conversation is a little useless without including combat logs.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby toothdecaykills » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:26 pm

In all of my recent progression tanking I've yet to see any of these behaviours. Since I'm sadly unable to provide anything of use, I'm just posting to encourage more folks to look into this. So far I've seen nothing but the expected behaviour regardless of size of hit or other factors.

Trust me, Icehowl with lazy DPS did a fantastic job of showing me huge one shot scenarios.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby toothdecaykills » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:14 am

Also, AD was recently nerfed on the PTR. You can find that here.

In short, Ardent Defender: This talent now reduces damage taken below 35% health by 7/13/20% instead of 10/20/30%.
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby Kihra » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:19 pm

toothdecaykills wrote:Also, AD was recently nerfed on the PTR. You can find that here.

In short, Ardent Defender: This talent now reduces damage taken below 35% health by 7/13/20% instead of 10/20/30%.


So instead of 15% EH bonus, it's more like 8.75% EH bonus now?
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Re: Observations of the Ardent Defender proc

Postby majiben » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:57 pm

Yes (discounting BV and damage shield effects).
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