[DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

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[DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:41 am

use the heroism emblem sigil to keep you over the defensive minimum?

I've encountered a problem in my guild where death knight tanks like to sit at 533 defense and rely solely on the Icy Touch proc from the emblem (increases defense rating by xx when Icy Touch has been used) to keep them over 540 defense. So far the excuse seems to be so that they can attain higher health via gems and whatnot. (Nevermind that he was dual wielding and not using Stoneskin... that's since been sorted out. X| )

My initial reaction is "hell no", and I've forced two of them to re-gem, re-enchant and basically sort their shit out before raiding again. However, when I did initially find out they were under the defensive minimum, it was mid-Ulduar raid and I had healers complaining that they thought he was getting crit. Whether or not he actually was being crit is up for debate since nobody has any logs, but his gear was decidedly poor which could explain the high damage intake.

Do other people consider this acceptable? Or am I just a raging bitch for forcing them to re-gem/re-enchant? I mean, if they get stunned, or Icy Touch misses, or SOMETHING happens, they're immediately crittable.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby Corpsicle » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:10 pm

I would ask them to regem and enchant too. As a tank you should plan for the worst case scenario - in this case it is not getting a proc for an extended period of time due to bad luck or stuns or just a hectic fight where you can't use the ability on cooldown.

Besides that, I'm pretty sure the buff doesn't have 100% uptime even assuming that you are perfect and do the ability that procs it on cooldown, each and every time. In that situation I ask myself: would it ever be okay for me to go tank something in Ulduar with 530 defense? Answer: Heck no! If it isn't okay for me, it isn't okay for them.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby TzumaNew » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:21 pm

Personally, while with the right rotation it could have a 100% uptime, its not worth it to rely on in raids.

A good tank is going to have a lot more going on in raids in LK then the old tank and spanks, and its worse for DKs already given complex tanking rotations for both threat and mitigation simultaneously.

Having one more cooldown to worry about means something else isnt getting as much attention. If youre tanking serious raids, then this sigil shouldnt be an option.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby amh » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:39 pm

Nikachelle wrote: raging bitch


I love you despite this :]

With the Uld25 dodge-sigil available from badges, it's very hard to justify using the defense-sigil. Suddenly the stamina-gain from going below 540 seems kinda small when you're giving up 136 dodge-rating for it.


Would you rely on holy shield to keep yourself uncrittable?
- If yes, let them use that silly sigil
- If no, use harsh words
I used to play a paladin.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:10 pm

amh wrote:
Nikachelle wrote: raging bitch


I love you despite this :]


/purr

amh wrote:Would you rely on holy shield to keep yourself uncrittable?
- If yes, let them use that silly sigil
- If no, use harsh words


I also have a paladin tank in my guild who thinks that holy shield is an emergency button. Teehee.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby Levantine » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:06 pm

Well by all rights, the sigil has 100% uptime barring some kind of retardation from the player. I was using it to keep above the def min while I was still using Swordshattering, and I never saw it as an issue.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby Corpsicle » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:47 pm

Levantine's point is good: a non retarded player can keep the proc up 100% (which I didn't know). Amh's point is also good - why would you give up the dodge from the conquest badge sigil for the defense proc sigil in order to get a bit more stamina out of your gear?

Ultimately, go with the concerns from healer's. Being able to keep a tank alive is the most important concern here and the people primarily responsible are complaining. Requiring the Dks to fix their gear up before raiding again so as to not present an issue to the healers is very valid. There are crafted epics from Ulduar patterns, BoEs, badge gear, and many other options to get up to par.

If they still persist in wanting to use the defense sigil, just ask them to provide a log of them tanking a movement fight in Ulduar or Nax where they maintain 100% uptime of the buff. They can do that even having regemmed to be over 540.

(edit: sigil for libram. For some reason, all range slot items are librams to me, even wands/guns/etc. lol)
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby Levantine » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:48 pm

For single target fights I still occasionally switch in the IT sigil for the guaranteed defense, which is in turn, guaranteed avoidance. Having a proc off of a proc (the Ulduar relic) is fine and dandy when Rune Strike is going off all the time, but there are bosses that hit entirely too slowly for it to be reliably around. Vezax and Icehowl spring to mind.

This will, of course, change when I can be bothered to get the Triumph sigil.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby TzumaNew » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:13 am

Levantine wrote:For single target fights I still occasionally switch in the IT sigil for the guaranteed defense, which is in turn, guaranteed avoidance. Having a proc off of a proc (the Ulduar relic) is fine and dandy when Rune Strike is going off all the time, but there are bosses that hit entirely too slowly for it to be reliably around. Vezax and Icehowl spring to mind.

This will, of course, change when I can be bothered to get the Triumph sigil.
For fights where Rune Strike is not a reliable source of threat, I find myself using a threat sigil instead of trying to find something else to hedge the loss of avoidence from not using the ulduar relic.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby Grigsby » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:23 am

Is it ok to tank any 80+ Raid with less than 540 Defense: No.
is it ok to use item proc's to maintain 540 Defense during Raids: Possibly.

At one point, Paladins were in the roll to become uncrittable, we had to rely on Holy Shield. And we use to have the issue that the cooldown on Holy Shield equaled the Duration of Holy Shield, which meant that depending on LAG, there could be up too 1 second of time where we were crittable.

This DK is in the same situation. There is no guarantee that the sigil proc will be up 100% of the time, while it is possible, it may not occur 100% of the time due to lag/other issues.

In the sense of being able to have a static 540 or a shifting 540, the Static 540 is always the better choice. When you include the new gear that is easily obtainable, new gems that just as easily obtained, and the fact that old gems are getting cheaper, I dont see hitting 540 Defense as being an issue. (I have both a DK Tank and Pally tank)
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby Argali » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:57 am

Grigsby wrote:At one point, Paladins were in the roll to become uncrushable, we had to rely on Holy Shield. And we use to have the issue that the cooldown on Holy Shield equaled the Duration of Holy Shield, which meant that depending on LAG, there could be up too 1 second of time where we were crittable.


Fixt for you.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby Levantine » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:48 pm

@ Grigsby

While I agree with you that the static uncrittability is most definately better than relying on the proc, your comparison between the Sigil and Holy Shield is flawed. Unfaltering Valor, the proc from the Sigil in question is a 30 second buff, whereas Frost Fever, the disease from using Icy Touch is between 15 and 21 seconds in duration. Even in the worst case scenario, a competant Death Knight tank will be using Icy Touch at the very least often enough to keep Frost Fever with a 100% uptime, meaning that the Sigil will be 100% active.

In order for lag to cause the buff to fall off, the DK would be experiencing 10 second delays, in which case, there are probably bigger issues than just being crittable.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby d503 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:13 am

Levantine wrote:@ Grigsby

While I agree with you that the static uncrittability is most definately better than relying on the proc, your comparison between the Sigil and Holy Shield is flawed. Unfaltering Valor, the proc from the Sigil in question is a 30 second buff, whereas Frost Fever, the disease from using Icy Touch is between 15 and 21 seconds in duration. Even in the worst case scenario, a competant Death Knight tank will be using Icy Touch at the very least often enough to keep Frost Fever with a 100% uptime, meaning that the Sigil will be 100% active.

In order for lag to cause the buff to fall off, the DK would be experiencing 10 second delays, in which case, there are probably bigger issues than just being crittable.


I run a frost build on my DK. I never use Icy Touch because I glyph Howling Blast to apply FF. This Sigil would basically be useless to use, as a result. Frankly, I don't see why people think there's such a bad thing about using Stoneskin Gargoyle and actually meeting defense minimums for tanking...if you're not swimming in defense, just do the "safe" thing...not to mention that there are WAY better sigil options at this point.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:34 am

Acceptable if you're stepping into Naxx10 for the first time ever, wearing blues and you just don't have better. Otherwise, no.
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Re: [DK Tank] How Acceptable is it to...

Postby Fenris » Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:41 am

Used it on my dk to stay above the def min (dw=no SSG=hard times doing it without the libram).

Not optimal,but as already said above,you can pretty much have a 100% uptime of it on single target (full rotation ends around 20s,the buff lasts 30,IT is ranged so you can reapply before the boss hits you if there is ever something that makes you move away from the target)

That said,i myself sidegraded from H-ToCh helm to t8.5 helm,just to push away the worst-case scenario
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