[25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Kishandra » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:47 pm

Why do you break the ranged into two camps? would it not be easier for two catchers to cover one camp than 1 catcher for each camp?
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby fafhrd » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:58 pm

More coverage of the room == fewer orbs wandering out aimlessly for a while i'd imagine. And fewer people to heal at once whenever a couple of bad orbs sneak through to the group.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Boèndal » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:27 pm

fafhrd wrote: a couple of bad orbs sneak through to the group.


A couple of bad orbs would be devastating for that camp, even one is quite bad. At least thats what happened to us on tuesday.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Joanadark » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:52 pm

I guess our diagram is a little deceiving. We dont really even have the ranged in "camps" at all. More simply spread throughout the room. One soaker protects the north-eastern sector, and one protects the north-western sector. South-east is covered by the one soaker protecting melee, and west is covered by tanks.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Boèndal » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:50 am

Joanadark wrote:I guess our diagram is a little deceiving. We dont really even have the ranged in "camps" at all. More simply spread throughout the room. One soaker protects the north-eastern sector, and one protects the north-western sector. South-east is covered by the one soaker protecting melee, and west is covered by tanks.


MS Paint thing like your alone pictures would have been better than this time :oops: Hopefully we'll have a look at them today evening trying some other positioning (I think Might und Cuties Only are more spread out which helps to cover the room - no offend I simply don't get yours right :cry: )
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Boèndal » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:37 pm

After one shotting the first three bosses we had 25 tries on them today. We used Forlorn Legacys' positioning.
Each dark camp contained of four casters and one healer covered by a hunter who was their catcher. Like Joanadark wrote before it was more of a group of people standing in that area than standing on the top of each other.
The melee light camp was nearly in the center of the room with both twins and they were covered by a resto druid at one corner and by me tanking the twin which was not their target. The remaining three healers were part of the melee camp.

Our best tries were somewhere in the 50%s. We had two major problems:

1) DPS on the shield while they are healing was quite low. The twin dps'd by caster where the melee had to switch was only 2-3 times (20% out of every try) interrupted even with heroism up. The other twin where caster had to switch was really close with interrupting but we managed it quite often (70% i think). With some dps dead it was nearly immpossible even on the melee twin. Our casters were complaining about bad orbs blowing up or having to move to protect the melee camp or themselves which all results in a dps loss on the shield.

2) People were dieing to touch of X (changing late) and bad orbs too often. Wrong orbs blowing the melee camp where you have nearly half of your raid really hurts. I think we can work on this part with more practise and people being aware of their surroundings - especially the interaction between the hunter catchers and their covered caster area.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Psykewne » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:06 pm

Ok so we got this tonight with a moderate amount of attempts (25 wipes left overall).

The trick for us was going from 6 to 7 healers and also forgoing dps and having a ranged dps take the place of one of our healers as a soaker (we had 4 healers soaking), this seemed to sure up general life expectancy quite a bit.

After that we had people become more "hunter" like in acquiring orbs, by that i mean they would actively seek out to absorb orbs when ever they came within a reasonable range.

Basically the trick seemed to be that aiming to remove orbs from the play field by all means possible was the best course of action above all others. I playing ret paladin would chase around the walls etc picking up stray orbs quite often making up my damage later by having more empowerments.

Overall i think we only had a few deaths in the final kill, we mostly just healed through touch damage.

We saved bloodlust until the 3rd shield (if we got one), this is because the first shield we could rely on having everyone alive, the second shield we could predict which twin would be doing it (since the other one had done theirs in that string of 4 abilities), however the 5th ability was a complete wildcard in which we would need to perhaps make up some damage if it was a shield.

We used 2 melee/2 ranged camps and didn't switch colour unless it was for a vortex.

Vortex caused us most issues as people had problems avoiding all the orbs that were left of the other colour during that period however aura mastery and some practise and people were living fine.

overall i'd say this fight is pretty spot on for tuning and definately rewards good performance.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Aubade » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:21 am

A few tips for tanking this fight.

In Forlorn Legacy's Strategy we use 2 tanks that stick on the same mob 100% of the time (Pretty basic stuff)

We use me on the light chick which we have designated to the ranged and we use a warrior tank(not specific, anyone can do it) on the Dark chick.

Basically we stack melee with light buff in the northwest corner attacking the dark chick and ranged are spread out in the rest of the room attacking light chick.

I tank the Light chick Near the melee but towards the center so that Melee can switch quickly for shields and the ranged can still stay in range, since i am the only Dark attuned player in melee range (unless soakers are in the area) one thing I need to look out for is dark orbs headed to our melee camp, If it's within range of me to safely grab I'll run over and nab it really quick(threat reallllly isn't an issue after you've grabbed 3-4 orbs and a vortex to get the Dark surge buff).

This fight is really simple for us tankadins (lucky us, but anub isn't so easy), 3-5 seconds before the twins will use an ability I move the boss a litttle closer to the melee for a really fast swap if needed.

for Dark vortex, don't do anything! (Yay us!)
For Light Vortex, Run south to nab the light atunned and then go straight back to the Melee camp.
For Dark shield, wait 5 seconds and then pop a CD (Trinket, Shieldwall, salvglyph if you use it,) The reasoning for this is the dual wielding buff that the light chick will gain.
for Light Shield, Keep doing your rotation. (I also like to keep a close watch on the blizz-cast bar and stop my rotation 5-6 seconds before the heal is done casting so that I can interuppt it with HoJ in case someone misses.)

Overall this fight is pretty damn easy for tanks, one last note though, Keep an eye on your debuffs for the Twin-spike that increases your damage taken, use some cooldowns if you have any up for this, you could even call out for a Sac or something.

I'm not very good at writing what I do into strats so if you have any specific questions about this that you can't find in one of the other posts here, feel free to ask me.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Boèndal » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:26 am

Had our last tries yesterday night. Too bad we wastet too much tries on thursday due to wrong positioning and on individual mistakes (unforced errors someone?).
The last 15 tries we ran 7 heal and had much more survivability and about 3-4 sub 20% wipes. Looking forward to get them down fast next ID.

Thank you very much for your input and advise Brekkie.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby wingman » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:45 am

Aubade wrote:A few tips for tanking this fight.

for Dark vortex, don't do anything! (Yay us!)
For Light Vortex, Run south to nab the light atunned and then go straight back to the Melee camp.
For Dark shield, wait 5 seconds and then pop a CD (Trinket, Shieldwall, salvglyph if you use it,) The reasoning for this is the dual wielding buff that the light chick will gain.
for Light Shield, Keep doing your rotation. (I also like to keep a close watch on the blizz-cast bar and stop my rotation 5-6 seconds before the heal is done casting so that I can interuppt it with HoJ in case someone misses.)


I gotta disagree with this a little. There's no reason for the tanks to ever switch attunements. The damage to a tank from vortex is easily healed through. Pop a shieldwall or some CD if you want, but I've found you're better off standing still and catching any loose orbs near melee. Overall, tank damage in this fight is a joke.

Also, another pro tip. The vortex has a 5 second cast time, and then the actual damaging cast is channeled for 5 seconds. When the mob you're tanking begins casting it, you can bubble divine shield and divine sacrifice the raid. The boss will switch targets, but won't move or melee anyone until she's done channeling her spell. Plenty of time to taunt her back to you and cancel the bubble.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Splug » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:50 pm

We've used two different strategies in the last two weeks. We're still debating which is better, but leaning toward the second. Ultimately, both of them yielded successful completion of the encounter.

Week 1, we tanked them in the center, with melee charged light and ranged charged dark. All ranged were spread out in a general circle around the melee camp, with mages and warlocks in corners near the dark portal and hunters/sp's/ele shaman/boomkin near the light portals. All ranged were responsible for absorbing dark orbs in their segment of the circle. Effectively, this gave all ranged a partial responsibility in shielding the raid from the opposite charge. Surviving the vortexes and breaking shields turned out to be trivial: most melee could just cleave off their main target to break the other add's shield, so it wasn't even worth changing polarity for anything other than the ret paladin and enhance shaman (evidently, chained attacks such as cleave, blade flurry, and heart strike were dealing full damage to both targets if you hit the correct target initially? They seem to have changed their mind on that now). The difficulty came with absorbing orbs during the vortex where ranged had to change colors and break their "shell," allowing the raid to take dark orbs. There were also occasional deaths at range due to everyone having to manage their own survival.

Week 2, we moved over to a much simpler strategy. We have a dedicated 3-man soak team: one frost deathknight (with acclimation) in tanking gear, and two mages (with an almost-useless for dps frost/arcane hybrid build) in lv 70 BT shadow resistance gear. These three and one of the tanks charge light. The other 21 raid members charge dark and set up camp on the light portal. We faced the tanks toward the center of the room to cover a small wedge there, I handled the area between the light portal and the wall, and the other two arcs were split between the mages. The dark vortex was handled by the soak team going into ice blocks and anti-magic shell. The light shield was entirely trivial as the whole raid was already at full burn on the target. On light vortex, the whole raid has easy access to the portal. The soak team will need heavier healing as they will be charging into dark orbs with a cross-polarity to protect the raid - at 400+ SR each (including aura mastery - shadow resistance), it's quite survivable. The hard part was breaking the dark shield, as the raid had to change polarity and start up rotations on the other target. We had the healers keep their dark charges and fan out within the ranged shell but out of the main raid clump on the side facing the room to absorb dark orbs, while I blew unbreakable armor and rushed dark orbs on my segment. If we were unable to predict the dark shield, we had to use bloodlust to break it reliably. This strategy made the fight much easier with two caveats: ironically, getting the raid back to a dark charge safely after having to swap to light occasionally cost us one or two people, and if both dark shields were cast early in their respective phases, we likely would allow one of them to cast, which forces the fight to end very close to the berserk timer. However, it made orb control and survivability of all players much easier and allowed us to use 6 healers.

The positioning explaination for last week's positioning was somewhat vague. I'll see about getting a screenshot or recording (or something) put together this week.

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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Soralin » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:24 am

We're having some pretty serious trouble breaking shields on heroic. On a couple of kill videos I've seen a mod display in raid chat how much of the shield remains and a readout in raid chat of who did what damage to it.

Does anybody use a similar mod - or feel like coding one for me? My coding skills aren't up to the task.

I envisage it would just be a modified damage meter that triggers when the shield begins and records all "absorbed" damage, with an output to raid chat. It doesn't need to be anything special but its a terrible pain having to wait until after raid to try and parse the combat log to see how close we were to killing shields.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Rojhaz » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:23 am

Splug wrote:Week 2, we moved over to a much simpler strategy. We have a dedicated 3-man soak team: one frost deathknight (with acclimation) in tanking gear, and two mages (with an almost-useless for dps frost/arcane hybrid build) in lv 70 BT shadow resistance gear. These three and one of the tanks charge light. The other 21 raid members charge dark and set up camp on the light portal. We faced the tanks toward the center of the room to cover a small wedge there, I handled the area between the light portal and the wall, and the other two arcs were split between the mages. The dark vortex was handled by the soak team going into ice blocks and anti-magic shell. The light shield was entirely trivial as the whole raid was already at full burn on the target. On light vortex, the whole raid has easy access to the portal. The soak team will need heavier healing as they will be charging into dark orbs with a cross-polarity to protect the raid - at 400+ SR each (including aura mastery - shadow resistance), it's quite survivable. The hard part was breaking the dark shield, as the raid had to change polarity and start up rotations on the other target. We had the healers keep their dark charges and fan out within the ranged shell but out of the main raid clump on the side facing the room to absorb dark orbs, while I blew unbreakable armor and rushed dark orbs on my segment. If we were unable to predict the dark shield, we had to use bloodlust to break it reliably. This strategy made the fight much easier with two caveats: ironically, getting the raid back to a dark charge safely after having to swap to light occasionally cost us one or two people, and if both dark shields were cast early in their respective phases, we likely would allow one of them to cast, which forces the fight to end very close to the berserk timer. However, it made orb control and survivability of all players much easier and allowed us to use 6 healers.

We beat them last night and this is almost the exact strategy we used. We had goalies switch for Dark Vortex and relied on people to dodge orbs themself for a bit. We didn't switch to dps the Dark Shield at all and simply let the heal go unless Dark Vortex and Light Shield had already happened. After the switch all DPS would stay light and DPS Darkbane, only switching if the above conditions were met again. With the DPS all on top of each other, almost all would become empowered at the same time. When that happened we'd Bloodlust and burn as much as we could.

When switching for vortex we'd have the melee and ranged go to different dark portals so they wouldn't all blow up since they sometimes had problems dodging and moving.

It worked but I'm not sure how much I like it, it seems to rely too much on the order of the special abilities during the first rotation.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Robob » Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:06 pm

Soralin wrote:We're having some pretty serious trouble breaking shields on heroic. On a couple of kill videos I've seen a mod display in raid chat how much of the shield remains and a readout in raid chat of who did what damage to it.



Anyone know which mod this is? We are having trouble w/the shield and its very close. Id like to know an exact number though of how close we are.
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Re: [25 Heroic] Twin Valkyr

Postby Belloc » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:53 am

I think it's more or less impossible to know the exact number. I did see discussion on such a mod, however, at the elitistjerks forum. It's in one of the argent threads... you'll know it's the right one if you see them talking about ToC bosses.
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