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[Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby fafhrd » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:29 pm

Worldie wrote:Actually he got only 4 snobolds, not 5. His buff stacks only reach 4 as well.


Got 5 this pull: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-V ... 786&e=7104

granted that's the only attempt he got 5, rest were all 4, not sure what caused it - maybe the mage the snobold was on dying and the snobold jumping onto someone else.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Ruull » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:38 pm

granted that's the only attempt he got 5, rest were all 4, not sure what caused it - maybe the mage the snobold was on dying and the snobold jumping onto someone else.


That may be the case. I looked through all our log parses as well and only saw 4 applications.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Belloc » Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:07 pm

If a target dies with a snobold on, it does add another stack.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Meloree » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:31 pm

Finally got to zone in and look at this on 25man today (long story).

Disappointing. But not as disappointing as Jaraxxus and Faction Champions.

I know, people are going to jump down my throat. But I don't think we should be able to 4-shot a hardmode boss. We even played safe, took 3 tanks and 6 healers to get used to the damage, figuring we'd have to adjust since the dps check is supposed to be tight. It isn't. P1 has lots of room for error. P2 is a bit tight, but really not bad. P3... we succeeded, even though melee had near-zero time on target because our warrior tank was somehow unable to charge after knockback, so Icehowl was wandering all over the map.

I'm editing the video now, looking over the kill, and I have to think that with all the mistakes we got away with, this encounter is undertuned for a "heroic" instance. I'd rather had to, like, work for the kill.

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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Auroris » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:22 am

Just saying guys... >-> My guild got Gormok down with 12 people left and Acidmaw and Dreadscale killing everyone. ;D He was at 10% when they entered. ACCOMPLISHMENT FOR US! sad... I know. /cheer.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Soralin » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:22 pm

Meloree wrote:Finally got to zone in and look at this on 25man today (long story).

Disappointing. But not as disappointing as Jaraxxus and Faction Champions.

I know, people are going to jump down my throat. But I don't think we should be able to 4-shot a hardmode boss. We even played safe, took 3 tanks and 6 healers to get used to the damage, figuring we'd have to adjust since the dps check is supposed to be tight. It isn't. P1 has lots of room for error. P2 is a bit tight, but really not bad. P3... we succeeded, even though melee had near-zero time on target because our warrior tank was somehow unable to charge after knockback, so Icehowl was wandering all over the map.

I'm editing the video now, looking over the kill, and I have to think that with all the mistakes we got away with, this encounter is undertuned for a "heroic" instance. I'd rather had to, like, work for the kill.

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This isn't our experience at all, although we have been extremely limited by server lag, unable to get many decent attempts in because often although the raid's latency is fine, there is a lag of ~1000-3000 ms on all abilities. This leads us getting significantly behind in DPS in Phase 1 and it flows on from there. We have about 18 attempts remaining and we're still no closer to a kill (gave up after the lag was too much and went back to Ulduar to finish our second Valanyr)

Having said that on our "good" attempts we are still behind, hitting the enrage timer while Icehowl is at ~25%. I'm quite interested in checking our your video. We've been trying it with 3 tanks and 6 healers - we switched to 2 and 5 but didn't get to P3 due to server lag and stupid deaths.

A couple of questions - how do you handle bleed stack rotations in P1? If you are using 3 tanks, do you switch at 2 stacks? What is your kill order for phase 2? Do you kill acidmaw first and deal with an enraged dreadscale? How is your raid positioned in phase 3? I'm fairly impressed that you beat the encounter ahead of the enrage timer with minimal melee time on Icehowl. How is your raid stacked - is it mostly ranged?

And finally the big question - when do you use heroism?
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Meloree » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:10 pm

Soralin wrote:A couple of questions - how do you handle bleed stack rotations in P1? If you are using 3 tanks, do you switch at 2 stacks? What is your kill order for phase 2? Do you kill acidmaw first and deal with an enraged dreadscale? How is your raid positioned in phase 3? I'm fairly impressed that you beat the encounter ahead of the enrage timer with minimal melee time on Icehowl. How is your raid stacked - is it mostly ranged?

And finally the big question - when do you use heroism?


Bleed rotations in P1: I start, prot warrior second, dk thirds. Everyone swaps at 2 stacks. Warrior and DK use cooldowns to cover thier impales on 2nd rotation (although our warrior failed at this on the kill), and I use DP to cover my 3rd rotation. Simple, easy, no stress.

P2: Wasted Acidmaw (35% after his first phase up). I tanked Acidmaw (stationary), Dreadscale (stationary enrage), Dreadscale (mobile and enraged), and then moved to be 2nd threat on Icehowl while our DK tanked Dreadscale through his final stationary phase. Dreadscale died just as Icehowl became active

P3: We're typically very melee heavy, actually. We popped heroism on the first Icehowl stun. Postioning was supposed to be "melee backed against a wall, prot warrior tanks and charges back from knockbacks to keep mob stationary". Positioning ended up being "all over the place, wtf". We wanted to keep all charges on one side of the room for dps-time. We ended up having them all over the place.

I'm not sure you actually want to see the video. Half the time it's unwatchable because I'm backed against a wall. It's also full of my really bad habits that I'm trying to get over. And I apparently have the worst UI ever built.

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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:23 am

We've tried to burn down Acidmaw first in p2, but one of our major issues was that with all 8 or so melee DPS attacking one target, if one of them gets targeted by the rooted worm's spray at any point (usually Dreadscale after one submerge), several of them get hit and nuke each other, or even if they survive, if three or four of them get burning bile, they all have to move off target to avoid killing each other. To try to avoid this, we only put 4 on Acidmaw, and 4 on Dreadscale, each four split into pairs who stack on each other, but this is ofc slowing down the burn and we have to be extra careful to make sure both worms are debuffed effectively. Is there some simple mechanic we're not seeing through which you can get all of your melee on Acidmaw until it's dead without risking all of them getting sprayed?

Edit:

Actually, does the rooted worm target who he's going to spray before he casts it? And if so does he do it early enough that whoever gets it could run out of the melee pile?
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Meloree » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:44 am

Rhiannon wrote:We've tried to burn down Acidmaw first in p2, but one of our major issues was that with all 8 or so melee DPS attacking one target, if one of them gets targeted by the rooted worm's spray at any point (usually Dreadscale after one submerge), several of them get hit and nuke each other, or even if they survive, if three or four of them get burning bile, they all have to move off target to avoid killing each other. To try to avoid this, we only put 4 on Acidmaw, and 4 on Dreadscale, each four split into pairs who stack on each other, but this is ofc slowing down the burn and we have to be extra careful to make sure both worms are debuffed effectively. Is there some simple mechanic we're not seeing through which you can get all of your melee on Acidmaw until it's dead without risking all of them getting sprayed?

Edit:

Actually, does the rooted worm target who he's going to spray before he casts it? And if so does he do it early enough that whoever gets it could run out of the melee pile?


It does target, and it does have a castbar, but it's very fast. There's pretty much just three things we did to take care of the melee all getting hit problem. 1) That's what aura mastery/dsac are for. 2) Acidmaw didn't really have very long left to live by the time he became mobile and melee became legit targets for burning bile. 3) Pray.

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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby itankforcash » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:58 am

we split the melee dps up after the first submerge because acidmaw should be low anyway, rather kill acidmaw 10 secs longer than 8 melee dying to burning bile and wasting an attempt.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Arianne » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:25 am

So we spent all yesterday evening on NRB. We've been using 2 tanks and trying to do a 3 4 3 1 1 rotation. However, it usually ends up that we're ending up with 3 4(HoP) 4(HoP) 2 1-2 before Gormok dies and the worms come out. We usually kill 3 snobolds and then focus the 4th down as the worms enter (though sometimes the snobold is still up when the worms activate).

We've been running 6 healers (1x holy priest, 1x disc priest, 2x shaman, 2x resto druid) with shamans and disc priest assigned to tanks and holy priests and resto druids assigned to raid (though the druids usually have a couple of HoTs on the tanks as well). In phase 2 we've been assigning shaman/disc(dreadscale tank) and shaman/druid(acidmaw tank) and druid/holy to raid.

What happens after that is usually:
a) The tank on dreadscale dies even with two healers dedicated to him and usually with a PS up for the first spew.
b) 2 of our healers get paralytic toxin and have to move to the tank, usually causing healers to die (if the tank doesn't die as well). This is partially the cause for a.
c) 2-4 of the ranged get PT and then don't get to the tank before they're paralyzed.

We're tanking Dreadscale essentially where he activates (since that's what I've seen in most videos and to make it easier for melee to get to the BB tank). G5 ranged stands S of Acidmaw, G4 stands sorta in the circle and G5 stands sorta between Acidmaw and Dreadscale.

What seems to happen is that anyone in G5 can't get to the Dreadscale tank before paralytic toxin paralyzes them. Having the healers centralized means that they can all heal everyone, but if any of them is slightly out of position then multiples of them get hit.

Generally our healers don't get picked until the second paralytic, which then means that there's a couple of the acid pools up and it seems like they can't get to the bb tank without being in poison. Once any of these things happens, we just fold like a deck of cards, losing a chain of people until there are around 10 people left, at which point everything stabilizes and we make it to phase 3.

Help! What are we doing wrong? :\ Do we just need to swap to a 3 tank strat? It seems like we're pretty close on DPS with only having 2 tanks, so I dunno if we can get through gormok with 3. :\
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Kishandra » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:48 am

When we got our kill on the worms, we used a 2 tank strat, with a slightly modified Gormok impale rotation: 5 (hop), 4 (hop), 3, 1. The guy with 3 then goes to Dreadscale's position, the guy with 1 stack to Acidmaw.

However, we have a dps warrior (in defensive stance and shieldwall activated) tanking Dreadscale until dreadscale places Burning Bile on him - should happen relatively fast within the first 10 seconds. Once this happens, the actual Dreadscale tank taunts him over and the dps warrior intervenes whoever got the paralytic poison (no one moves except him.)

On the second paralytic poison spew, the worms are about to go under in like 5 seconds anyway, so everyone just stay in place, then when the worms burrow the Dreadscale tank runs around and unparalyzes everyone.

Our last couple of kills didn't even have the dps warrior doing anything, the Dreadscale tank is now familiar enough with the molten spew timer so that he runs around unparalyzing our players while pointing Dreadscale at us ... but timed right so that the raid never gets spewed on.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Arianne » Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:20 pm

So I guess the key is that people don't move, the BB debuff moves to them. This seems counter-intuitive to me because then you're having the BB debuff run through the raid and hit everyone, but I guess we'll try it. /sigh
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Greengo » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:28 pm

Try 4, 5 (hop), 3 (hop), 1.
It works pretty well for us.

Caster tank (lock) on stationary worm in p2.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Arianne » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:21 pm

We tried using a caster tank in phase 2 for awhile and the caster tank just got owned (hp yoyo'ing from 100 to 20%, etc). Having a caster spec for tanking defeats the purpose because then you're losing the DPS that you're gaining from having only two tanks.
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