Remove Advertisements

Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby defeated » Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:26 pm

So, i've been prot and tanking on my paladin since i started playing WoW, and i have been really concerned lately, for some reason a few certain people in my guild have all been riding me on omen, and i've never had this happen before. The people doing this are a fire mage, feral druid, hunter (but FD easily solves that) and warlock. The biggest issue is the fire mage, its like i'll be fine then a second later he's way over my threat, so i'm constantly setting up salv macros for him.

My question is do we need to gear for more hit, expertise stuff like that? Currently i'm over the exp soft cap with the glyph, and hit is pretty low, here is a link to my armory page http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Defiance.

If there is something i can alter with my spec, or anything, please let me know, i just don't understand why my threat seems so low now. Our warrior tank is just about as geared for threat as i am, and his threat trumps mine, sometimes even right after i taunt, like for example on 10 man heroic gormok, i will taunt, then continue my rotation, and he ends up out threating me.

Edit: for rushed spelling and incorrectly naming things. ><
defeated
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 6:27 am

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby nutron » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:13 pm

are you using SoCorr?

because i dont have any threat problems whatsoever and i have less block value, str, set bonuses than you..
User avatar
nutron
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:43 am

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby Pizbit » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:51 pm

Your mage can use invisibility, warlock soulshatter and hunter should be MDing to you anyway, and with issues on threat, every CD.
And yeah, what seal are you using? Are you following the 96 rotation(mostly)? Any fights in particular?
I have ADHD and OCD...I keep forgetting to wash my hands.
Pizbit
 
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:37 am

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby defeated » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:01 am

Lol yes, i am using the 969 rotation flawlessly, i have it all keybound, i am not a clicker either lol. I am using Seal of Corruption, and i have absolutely no idea how they seem to pull threat. There is really no fight in particular, but just on fights in general, yogg's guardians become an issue, to lets say icehowl, or some of the toc bosses, its really random, i am not sure if i should be gearing differently, like possibly stack some extra BV or hit, i really wanted to avoid the t9 pants but the way i am being out threated by our warrior tank and other dps'rs is making me think they may actually be good for me.

Oh, and their soulshatter (from what i've been told by fellow locks) is on a 3min cd, but i dunno, maybe the dps that are out threating me are not using their tools correctly or something, because on some of the fights i have been tanking they have been dps races, especially fights like H toc 25.
defeated
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 6:27 am

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby Ruull » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:08 am

Few things I saw looking at your armory:

1) Your hit is less than half of what it needs to be on horde (even with hit food that only puts you at 161) so you're still over 100 points off. That would help your threat considerably.

2) You're using 2 rings without defense and while you're still at 540 you're gemmed for tons of sta/def gems. If you switched to rings with defense then you could regem those for sta/hit gems and solve problem one. Also I'd switch your weapon enchant from blood draining to accuracy to gain a bit more hit from that as well.

3) You're using the righteous defense glyph. Unless you're tanking algalon/steelbreaker it's unneeded as a taunt resist isn't going to be make or break. For fights that are really threat intensive swap in judgement. It's not a huge threat burst but anything helps.

4) Swap 2 points from pursuit of justice to conviction. I'm personally a big fan of more threat and just going with tuskars. You also have 2 points in imp judgement so shift a point to benediction so 969 stays synced up.

5) You're wearing the avoidance libram which is great but if it's a fight you're pressed on threat for switch to LoO.

Anyhow give those a shot and let us know what happens. Good luck!
Ruull, Might - Turalyon - US
User avatar
Ruull
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:30 pm

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby defeated » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:48 am

Yeah i have the ret libram too, which gives 200 str, but i dunno how i can be tanky, like not get 2 or 3 shot by bosses in heroic toc's as well as hold threat, its like a hard medium i obviously need to find.
defeated
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 6:27 am

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby Epimer » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:01 am

Ruull wrote:You also have 2 points in imp judgement so shift a point to benediction so 969 stays synced up.


This comes up quite often and I feel the need to correct it each time - so copy and paste from the last time :)

0 - Judgement
1.5 - ShoR
3 - Holy Shield
4.5 - HotR
6 - Consecrate
7.5 - ShoR
(8 - Judgement off cooldown)
9 - Judgement

You can't cast Judgement early and thus break your rotation because you're still in the GCD from the previous 6 second ability when Judgement becomes available. So it's only a wasted point in that it doesn't improve your rotation, but it does have the aforementioned benefits of a ranged pick-up ability being available earlier when you need it (Thorim's arena, any other add pick-up fight). It's a reasonable way to spend the filler point.
User avatar
Epimer
 
Posts: 1496
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:54 am

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby sublimated » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:27 am

^

I always roll with 2 points in imp judgements, cause it never hurts having your judgements off the CD a second earlier. For ranged pickups its great and also for soloing when you drop out consecration or whatnot.

Now, in hopes not to derail the thread. As far as I can see, your spec is fine, your rotation according to you is fine. Aside from swapping in a judgement glyph, if you really want to... Maybe your dps just need to learn to control their threat better? I think we're finally getting to a point in gear and such that dps are beginning to creep up on us, and I think that's exactly what blizz wants to happen (Hit rating missing from T9 gear anyone?) They mentioned wanting us to begin worrying about threat, or gemming for it. I think with your gear your avoidance is probably top shape, maybe you could swap in a couple of hit rating gems as someone mentioned.

Imo, the most important factor is that dps need to begin opening that spellbook and finding those threat dumping abilities they used to use in TBC and put them back in their action bars, or maybe just begin watching their dps carefully like back in the day.

It makes me wonder if today's generation of dps would have ever survived a fight like Leotheras the Blind, lol.
Image
User avatar
sublimated
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:52 pm

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby majiben » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:38 pm

Ruull wrote:Few things I saw looking at your armory:

1) Your hit is less than half of what it needs to be on horde (even with hit food that only puts you at 161) so you're still over 100 points off. That would help your threat considerably.

2) You're using 2 rings without defense and while you're still at 540 you're gemmed for tons of sta/def gems. If you switched to rings with defense then you could regem those for sta/hit gems and solve problem one. Also I'd switch your weapon enchant from blood draining to accuracy to gain a bit more hit from that as well.

3) You're using the righteous defense glyph. Unless you're tanking algalon/steelbreaker it's unneeded as a taunt resist isn't going to be make or break. For fights that are really threat intensive swap in judgement. It's not a huge threat burst but anything helps.

4) Swap 2 points from pursuit of justice to conviction. I'm personally a big fan of more threat and just going with tuskars. You also have 2 points in imp judgement so shift a point to benediction so 969 stays synced up.

5) You're wearing the avoidance libram which is great but if it's a fight you're pressed on threat for switch to LoO.

Anyhow give those a shot and let us know what happens. Good luck!

I disagree with a lot of what's said here and here's why:

1)You don't Need 8% hit. It's just what you don't want to go over. Additionally, I am against gemming hit in a general use tanking set (for paladins, warriors and druids are/were rage limited without some hit/exp gemming). I can see it used for a taunt swap fight set but that's it. Additionally, the gains from changing their defense/stam gems is minimal at a maximum gain of 40 hit or about 100 TPS. They would get a greater threat benefit with a lower survival cost with changing their 4 dodge/stam gems to str/stam gems. While we're on the subject of gemming, changing all your dodge/stam gems to agil/stam gems will yield ~.85% with a very, very small drop in survival (agil is 97% as effective for survival as dodge before it's synergy with BV is considered) (40 tps). On a related note, str food is higher TPS than hit food.

2) Ruull is right to say that your rings could be causing you trouble. They're both good rings though. For fights without large magic burst I actually recommend picking up a second armor ring over the 5 man toc ring. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47731 would be a great investment, it has everything a growing tank could want :wink: . http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45112 is another good option you may already have in your bags and if not it's easy enough to get a in a pug for just early ulduar on many servers once a week. Both are actually slight threat upgrades over you 5 man ring.

3) It's true that you don't "need" RD's Glyph but it's still a nice glyph to give you some more peace of mind. Personally, I use the HoSalv glyph. The judgement glyph is worth about 70 TPS.

4) The imp Judgement was covered by others. The talk about 2/2 PoJ vs conviction is something you'll have to consider. The swap is ~ 94 TPS difference. Something that was not talked about is dropping DG for 2/5 reckoning for a 51 TPS boost. Again your choice that you need to think about concerning your playstyle and your raid group.

5) Yes it's true that you could eek out some more threat with the BV libram but if you're serious about a changing into some TPS gear you should be using DMC:G and/or the Ret Str libram.


Other things to consider:

We know you say you use a 96969 rotation but you'll be surprised how many who think they are, are not. A would combat log would be immensely helpful for confirming this. But we don't only want a combat log for that. It's a wealth of information on your group and how individuals who are the source of your threat grief are doing. We can tell if they are not ToT or MDing you, if they aren't using their threat management tools enough and other stuff. Hell, I've seen stuff as odd as our then top dps enhancement shaman convince the 3-4 rogues to chain ToT him, no wonder why he was going splat so much. On a related note, your paladins should be making use of your

When are your threat troubles the worst? At the start? Middle of the fight? Execution range? If it's near the pull then there are a few steps you can take to make things easier. If you run with a second paladin tank you can ask them to start the pull with an AS, then use your HoR followed by your AS. That's a huge difference from just your own AS. Always start your pulls with an HoR or Exorcism if you can. Don't be afraid to ask your dps to hold on for 2 seconds at the start of a fight if you need it (barring a really tight dps race).

What is your latency? It may be a huge source of your threat issues.

Are any debuffs missing? Missing the magic modifiers is a huge for instance. When you are missing key buffs but your dps are not it can be an issue.

Are you using AW on CD? At 7k TPS without using it, using on CD is an additional 156 TPS


Over all I'm against gearing for threat, not because I think it's wrong but usually there are usually far more potent ways of correcting the issue that don't require your survival to drop.
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby defeated » Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:07 pm

Uhh, yeah i do actually use 969, i usually try to start off with a HoR or SoR after the pull, dependant on which type of mob and the scenario i have i may use a taunt Hand of reck, to get the free 2k if not a crit holy damage threat lead followed by avengers shield before the boss gets into range to start my rotation.

Now i really like my taunt glyph, i like to know my taunts almost always land, i've not had an issue with taunts landing when i use it, but would hate to see "resisted" especially on fights like thorim hardmode etc where i really need to have each taunt work the second i hit the keybind.

Now the extra point into imp judgements was used just for that, add pickup, but honestly was thinking about changing it.

I was contemplating the changing of my spec so i no longer have divine sac whatsoever, and just get 3/5 reckoning, about how much tps would that give me if anyone has an idea?

Lastly for the rings, the ones i have equipped are the best ones i own currently, if i had better ones, like one from uld 25, or from the badges, i would have equipped them already lol.
defeated
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 6:27 am

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby Althae » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:55 am

I say you forgot RF 8)
Althae
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:01 am

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby Corpsicle » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:38 am

The mage should be getting to within an inch of pulling (or well, you know less if he can't time it right) and then using invis to drop it completely. If he's timing it right, he'll never catch back up to you afterwards. Hunter can FD and misdirect and with only a 30 second cooldown on FD I really wouldn't accept a hunter over agroing and pulling threat off you.

Ferals have cower, but from my understanding of it cower doesn't do much of anything useful.

Lock threat is ridiculous - I have one and I run at 3500 tps with vigilance and a crappy rotation in about ilevel 219 gear. Sometimes my tps is actually higher than my dps by 500 to 1000 and I can't figure out why. As a tank, I don't really know what to do about the locks that really push the dps/threat meters other than let them pull and die or wipe the group and hope it teaches them something about control for the next time. Locks have a 50% threat dump on a 3 minute cooldown but that doesn't seem to be enough.

There is always the chance you have run into my non repeatable bug. Seems like there is something weird with threat now, specifically threat stances. My hubby's warrior was in defensive stance and couldn't do more than 1000 tps to save his behind (or ours lol). Turns out, based on damage increase percentages from the character sheet (as well as damage taken going way up), that the game thought he was in battlestance or berserker stance. Logging out, dying and swapping talent specs didn't fix it. My friends DK had a similar issue with blood and frost presences. Myself and another guild paladin have had cases where Righteous Fury drops mid fight and rebuffing it will not put it back up for more than a few seconds at a time. We can't make it happen on demand and so far it seems completely random as to when it happens.
Corpsicle
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:08 pm

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby Hurlrage » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:14 am

Interesting.
For a long time threat has been a non issue for me too, but on some very tight dps races (worst is Hodir raid10 Hard Mode) I find myself in a difficult situation threat wise.
Most of the time it's on the beginning of the fight.

On worst case scenario (Hodir hard mode) I need to run the following :
Pull : HoR - AS - judgement ---> go on 96969 and put on RF as soon as you hit 5 stacks of seal. Once you're in your rotation you should be ok.

On threat side I work with 27 expertise, and 238 hit rating. So I think your hit rating is lacking.
My first T9.5 piece was the leg part, I am quite concerned with the lack of hit on our class set, so I will switch to accuracy enchant and a few +20 to hit gems to always have hit rating >200.

Then, the guys here are right I think, both your ring are good but you need to change them to get some defence on them.

I'll may be crucified by the Gurus theorycrafters, but I never enchant/gem an item on its strength, I always consider my whole stuff, look at what I am missing (defence, hit rating, expertise etc..) then I gem and enchant accordingly to cover my weakness.

-> change your spec to max your threat (but keep PoJ - speed is good when there is FAIRITBURNZ)
-> increase hit rating

Just my 2 cents..but I am quite concerned with our threat nerf..I am also considering the ret libram for tanking purpose on tight dps races.
Hurlrage
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:58 am

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby badgermonkey » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:17 am

On worst case scenario (Hodir hard mode) I need to run the following :
Pull : HoR - AS - judgement ---> go on 96969 and put on RF as soon as you hit 5 stacks of seal. Once you're in your rotation you should be ok.



Why wouldn't you have RF on from the start? :?
Image
badgermonkey
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:36 pm

Re: Sigh, i need threat issue help!

Postby Hurlrage » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:20 pm

badgermonkey wrote: Why wouldn't you have RF on from the start? :?


Because if you wait for your 5 seals stack, you get the extra holy damage per strike, wich are +20% with RF.
Thus you maximize your threat output.
Hurlrage
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:58 am

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest