[holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

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[holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Shoju » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:15 am

Since this became a topic of discussion in my 11/5/55 ret thread, and I wanted to talk more about it without derailing my other thread, I'm starting a new thread to keep the two discussions separate.


The side topic started with:

Joanadark wrote:While an appropriately geared and speced holy paladin will indeed have AM regardless, the ret spec to pick up the 8% crit is pretty much dead. With the spell power levels we are currently reaching, going into prot for Divine Guardian to increase Sacred Shield outweighs the crit build completely. Our longevity is to a point where that crit provides almost nothing significant anyway, and there is no throughput arguement to be made about a few % spell crit compared to a flat increase of a powerful absorbtion shield.
If you need burst throughput as a holy paladin you use wings or a trinket or divine favor, you dont pray for crits, particularly when our crit from gear is already so good anyway all by itsself.

A lot of holys are actually gearing for spell power and haste over endurance stats like crit and even int now, even after the regen hit this patch. There is no reason for any holy paladin who isnt massively undergeared to still be running the crit spec. You lose too much.


I asked the question

shoju wrote:Would this be true of 10 man paladins as well? in the 51/0/20 spec I'm rocking, I'm at 2100 spellpower, 22k mana in uld10 gear unbuffed.


Which was responded to with:

Joanadark wrote:that depends. how frequently do you find yourself running oom? If the answer is alot, are you making use of plea effectively already? (using it during all obligitory movement periods, using it preemptively early and not waiting until you have an empty tank, popping Divine Illum/wing/trinkets at once to allow heavier ssustained spamming when using it during normal healing periods)

There is a place for crit stacking, but that place is when you simply dont have the gear to maintain your output for the length of time your guild takes to kill things, for whatever reason that may be.

As far as tank survivability is concerned though, the prot spec sub-spec is clearly better. Some crit chance would never in a million years compete with a beefed and lengthened absorbtion shield and access to Dsac.


Which is where we stand now.

So, I will say that since the patch, I haven't found myself going OOM even with the nerfs to the int + illumination nerf. I think that I'm pretty good about couple DP with something else.

A couple of notes about my healing.

Here is my armory

I logged in real quick, swapped specs so until 6 or 7 EST I should be safely logged in my Holy gear + Spec.
if you want to know what it looks like and I'm in my ret set, I'm at

22.7k Mana
2102 Healing
36.94% Holy Crit
332 Haste
233mp5 ooc
168mp5 ic

I'm a 10 man raider. I wouldn't normally be a healer for a hard mode. Most of the time, I heal 5 mans, Uld, and I've healed in ToC10 twice. If you check me on the armory, I'm using a pretty standard 51/0/20 spec. with Beacon, HL, SoW glyphs.

Is the prot subspec build going to look like 51/20/0?

Would I want to change my glyphs at all?
What about my gemming?
I'm currently blue quality gemmed for int (this is my off spec, I haven't bothered epic gemming it), with int/mp5 gems to get the meta.

The big question for me is:

Is 20% more on Sacred Shield a big deal? I know that I would be happy enough with the double duration, but I'm not real 'hip' on the math around with sacred shield.

I'm very curious about the prot subspec, any help would be appreciated.
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Baelor » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:23 am

I generally think that the standard fair for prot sub-spec is 52/17/0 +2.

Siha has an entire post dedicated to it.
http://www.bananashoulders.com/2009/07/ ... w-hotness/

Siha says 51/17/0 +3, but she left out Aura Mastery and that's blasphemous, in my opinion.

Not having to babysit Sacred Shield and bumping the absorb is a big deal, as is getting access to Divine Sacrifice in the process.
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Shoju » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:54 am

Ok, I read her post about it, and I only have a couple of problems with the spec. They could just be personal things, because of the makeup of my guild.

We ALWAYS seem to have a shaman around. We have more raiding shaman than we have raiding Paladins, Mages, and warlocks combined.

We normally just have the shaman drop the mana totem and have the paladin buff Kings, making IMP. BoW moot for me currently. I'm not sure if the diminished crit rate would require me to look at getting that as a talent or not.

Going off of what she has posted, I could see changing it up to

51/20/0

with a point in blessed hands, and IMP LoH instead of IMP. Conc aura. I don't know if I like the idea of not having IMP. Conc aura, but I couldn't exactly put my finger on 'why' I don't like not having it. Its just one of those talents that I've always taken.

Imp Lay on Hands just seems... like a 'meh' talent to me. With the reduction being only to physical damage, it seems limited. I don't use LoH that much either. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.


EDIT: I also wonder why she doesn't include Improved Devotion Aura as a 'mandatory' kind of thing. 6% healing seems like a REALLY nice boost to a raid. At one point, I'm talenting 12% more healing by my spells, and then I'm talenting another 5% to my spells, but this is 6% increased healing to EVERYONE who is benefiting from my aura. That is a HUGE bonus to throughput for all the healers, and to me, is a LARGE bonus, on par with the healing bonus that a Resto Druid brings. ( I doubt they would stack )
Last edited by Shoju on Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Joanadark » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:30 am

I logged in real quick, swapped specs so until 6 or 7 EST I should be safely logged in my Holy gear + Spec.
if you want to know what it looks like and I'm in my ret set, I'm at

22.7k Mana
2102 Healing
36.94% Holy Crit
332 Haste
233mp5 ooc
168mp5 ic

I'm a 10 man raider. I wouldn't normally be a healer for a hard mode. Most of the time, I heal 5 mans, Uld, and I've healed in ToC10 twice. If you check me on the armory, I'm using a pretty standard 51/0/20 spec. with Beacon, HL, SoW glyphs.


Your armory is still showing ret gear, but I can tell you that I run significantly less crit than your current gear in my 25-man ulduar and hardmodes set, and have over 600 haste. Running the prot spec I've not come accross content yet that I felt I couldnt keep up with in longevity.
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Baelor » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:33 am

Shoju wrote:Ok, I read her post about it, and I only have a couple of problems with the spec. They could just be personal things, because of the makeup of my guild.

We ALWAYS seem to have a shaman around. We have more raiding shaman than we have raiding Paladins, Mages, and warlocks combined.

We normally just have the shaman drop the mana totem and have the paladin buff Kings, making IMP. BoW moot for me currently. I'm not sure if the diminished crit rate would require me to look at getting that as a talent or not.

Going off of what she has posted, I could see changing it up to

51/20/0

with a point in blessed hands, and IMP LoH instead of IMP. Conc aura. I don't know if I like the idea of not having IMP. Conc aura, but I couldn't exactly put my finger on 'why' I don't like not having it. Its just one of those talents that I've always taken.

Imp Lay on Hands just seems... like a 'meh' talent to me. With the reduction being only to physical damage, it seems limited. I don't use LoH that much either. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Just because it's only physical damage doesn't mean it's not worth getting.

What deals physical damage and could kill tanks?

XT during tantrum.
Ignis with several adds up.
Steelbreaker last.
Thorim's Unbalancing Strike as the soft enrage builds.
Vezax during his 1-minute dark rage thingy.
Full HP Immortal Guardians vs. Yogg.
Algalon just about anytime.
Gormok's Impale attack.
Anub'arak with adds up.

That's a lot of opportunity to give your tank a mini-shield wall and save other cooldowns for the magical damage stuff.
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Shoju » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:35 am

How do you end up with so much haste? Is it just a byproduct of gearing normally? Wouldn't at 600 haste the haste from judgement push your heals below the GCD? I'm not criticizing, I'm really curious. Holy has just been something that I just did because I was a paladin, and it ensure that I could always get a group going. Even at 70 with no dual spec, I always made sure I had the best healing set that I could put together as a backup to make sure that things would happen. It's nothing that I ever researched past:

"This is how you gear"
"This is what you pay attention too"
"These are the spells you cast"

I'm wanting to be a better holy paladin and feel less gimped in my off spec.

Baelor wrote:Just because it's only physical damage doesn't mean it's not worth getting.

What deals physical damage and could kill tanks?

XT during tantrum.
Ignis with several adds up.
Steelbreaker last.
Thorim's Unbalancing Strike as the soft enrage builds.
Vezax during his 1-minute dark rage thingy.
Full HP Immortal Guardians vs. Yogg.
Algalon just about anytime.
Gormok's Impale attack.
Anub'arak with adds up.

That's a lot of opportunity to give your tank a mini-shield wall and save other cooldowns for the magical damage stuff.



Would you proactively want to use LoH and 'suck up' the overhealing in those situations then as a mini cooldown?
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Jasari » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:47 am

Does imp LoH stack with the priest and shaman 10% physical mitigation buffs?
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Shoju » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am

I do not believe it does, but I could be wrong.
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Baelor » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:16 am

Shoju wrote:
Baelor wrote:Just because it's only physical damage doesn't mean it's not worth getting.

What deals physical damage and could kill tanks?

XT during tantrum.
Ignis with several adds up.
Steelbreaker last.
Thorim's Unbalancing Strike as the soft enrage builds.
Vezax during his 1-minute dark rage thingy.
Full HP Immortal Guardians vs. Yogg.
Algalon just about anytime.
Gormok's Impale attack.
Anub'arak with adds up.

That's a lot of opportunity to give your tank a mini-shield wall and save other cooldowns for the magical damage stuff.



Would you proactively want to use LoH and 'suck up' the overhealing in those situations then as a mini cooldown?

Yes.

As a holy paladin, I used Improved Lay on Hands as a mini-Pain Suppression and ignore the heal component. As a ret paladin, I use un-improved LoH as an instant tank save when I'm paying attention. The talent changes my usage from reactive to proactive.
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Shoju » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:32 am

Wow. Then I will definitely look into getting that talent. I never thought about using it as a proactive cooldown. (Though I never looked at using the Glyph of Salvation as a CD as a Prot either until it was suggested).

I'm more than a little curious about this build. I'm thinking it might be worth speccing it and trying it out on something 'non-progression' for us.
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Shoju » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:22 am

I have some hard and fast numbers to look at from Healing with the ret crit spec. I healed our clear of ToC last night (WOOT! #1 10 man strict guild again!) and Can say with certain fact that:

1.) with the ret spec, I NEVER went OOM. I even TRIED on a couple of fights to spam myself OOM, and I couldn't
2.) The better / longer / more absorbant Sacred Shield would be VERY VERY nice for ToC.
3.) I will be picking up IMP. Devo Aura, as I ran it all night. Yes, I had a Tree with me, but there was NEVER a time in ToC that I was worried about spell lock. Even with the Mistress of Pain on Hard Mode, I will just switch to conc aura and AM when the silence is cast.
4.) Threat by our tanks was so incredibly huge that I will probably also pick up IMP. Righteous Fury and whenever there is raid damage.

After seeing how overdone the crit spec is, I'm going to be switching to the prot spec as soon as I log on tonight and give it a whirl.
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Shoju » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:50 am

Sorry, Shamelessly bumping my thread to see if I can get Joanadark and Baelor to take a look at my holy gear since it is showing in the armory :)

I need to change the gem in my belt now that I got the chestpiece (just got it last night, had the spell/int gems in the bank)
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Baelor » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:56 am

Shoju wrote:Sorry, Shamelessly bumping my thread to see if I can get Joanadark and Baelor to take a look at my holy gear since it is showing in the armory :)

I need to change the gem in my belt now that I got the chestpiece (just got it last night, had the spell/int gems in the bank)

You're going to need JD or someone holier than me to do a gear assessment. I don't actually play holy. I ret in 25's, i prot in 5/10's, and I put holy gear in my bank unenchanted and ungemmed.

I can talk holy specs, not gear.
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Shoju » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:58 am

So your holy gear looks like most of my tank gear :)

Sadly, I think that up until the past couple of days, I could talk prot better than holy. I'm getting better though :)
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Re: [holy-pve] Holy subspec topic (pulling from other thread)

Postby Corpsicle » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:44 am

Your holy numbers look a lot like my holy numbers. I'm also primarily 10 man geared for my holy set, some 25 man Ulduar pieces but not many. It is my off set so I don't have a full 4pc T8, just two. I'm currently using a ret crit spec, but I dont' really see much difference in longevity from it - at our gear level, raid buffed, we have enough crit that dropping 8% from the ret tree is not a really big deal. I'll be respeccing back into the prot subbuild as soon as I think I'll have to heal anything that matters.

As far as your gear goes, the only change I'd suggest is getting to 500 haste. The 600 haste or more comes from intentionally stacking haste with higher ilevel gear as a main spec (or an off spec in a guild that is clearing 25s very fast and can completely gear out main and off spec for its players). I find that I don't have the pieces to get me quite that high so I end up about 500 to 550 haste. Going lower than that really makes a difference in through put and numbers. Even with flash being below the GCD, the point isn't flash of light it is getting Holy Light as close to the GCD in cast time as possible.

Mana per five is a very nice stat now and there are a number of haste/mp5 pieces floating around Ulduar and vendors that you might take a look at getting. Also, if you can 4pc T8 is great with a prot sub build since the 4pc bonus directly affects sacred shield. I keep two gear sets on me for healing - one is a haste/crit/sp set that has low MP5. I use that one for 'easy' content where I'm primarily casting flash of light (heroics, nax 10, etc). The other set has much higher MP5 and haste and is more of a through put Holy Light set. I tend to use this for longer fights where I cast Holy Light non stop. I tend to adjust between the two extremes on a piece by piece basis as well depending on what I want for any given situation - almost anything easier than Ulduar hard modes can be done with a haste/crit/sp set it seeems.
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