[Ret-PvE] I did it. I respecc'd 11/5/55.

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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[Ret-PvE] I did it. I respecc'd 11/5/55.

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:39 am

I tagged your title. Come on Shoju, you hang around these boards enough, follow the few rules I ask! -Baelor
I'm sorry baelor.

I love Aura Mastery when I'm holy, and I just can't seem to justify tying up so many cooldowns for Divine Sacrifice anymore. I will give you in game impressions once I have had a chance to raid with it. I have a feeling that I'm going to LOVE IT.
Last edited by Shoju on Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I did it. I respecc'd 11/5/55.

Postby Marwan » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:42 am

It's awesome.

I use AM far more often than DS/DG was used. Also I still have the comfort of knowing that I still have my bubble available if the situation gets hairy. I can still HoS/Bubble.

Not to mention the best kept secret, Pally Sprint (Crusader Aura + AM = win ... in the air and on the ground).
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Re: [Ret-PvE] I did it. I respecc'd 11/5/55.

Postby andx » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:52 am

Shoju wrote:I tagged your title. Come on Shoju, you hang around these boards enough, follow the few rules I ask! -Baelor

I laughed. And AM is awesome.
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Re: [Ret-PvE] I did it. I respecc'd 11/5/55.

Postby Baelor » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:58 am

Combining AM with DSac cooldowns is powerful. Having an AM and a DSac to couple together for predictable raid burst is excellent and was one of the key factors in my guild getting 25-man Freya 3-knock down in one night of attempts, as well as Vezax-25 hard in one night, and cementing an Algalon-10 kill.

Choosing Aura Mastery or Divine Sacrifice shouldn't be an individual decision. It should be a calculated risk keeping in mind what your other paladins have. If you run with 1 holy paladin and you as ret, you'll want Divine Sacrifice. If you run with no holy paladins, you'll want Aura Mastery. If you run with 2 holy paladins, neither of which have DSac, you'll want DSac. If you run with 2 holy/prot paladins who both have DSac, you can choose either.

The above are not hard-and-fast rules, but rather my impressions of the various situations. Retribution gives up very little to snag either cooldown. Holy gives up a great deal of crit and thereby throughput to get DSac, and will have AM regardless. Protection can't use their DSac very much and has a little trouble getting to AM depending on the choices of utility they take. You must take into account raid composition, raid leader cooldown usage strategies, fight length, and damage type when choosing AM vs DSac. It's not as simple as "I got AM and it's GREAT!"
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Re: I did it. I respecc'd 11/5/55.

Postby bub64882 » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:04 pm

Marwan wrote:Not to mention the best kept secret, Pally Sprint (Crusader Aura + AM = win ... in the air and on the ground).


OMG I hadn't considered this! What a great farming spec in the ultra competitive herbalism/mining wintergrasp and scholozar basin areas!!!

I'm gonna try it. :)

BTW is that raid wide too? Could a BG team w/ a dk and AM equipped pally get to the blacksmith in 10 seconds, and be well prepared for the attackers? When rated BG's come, this might be a required talent.
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Re: [Ret-PvE] I did it. I respecc'd 11/5/55.

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:16 pm

Baelor wrote:Combining AM with DSac cooldowns is powerful. Having an AM and a DSac to couple together for predictable raid burst is excellent and was one of the key factors in my guild getting 25-man Freya 3-knock down in one night of attempts, as well as Vezax-25 hard in one night, and cementing an Algalon-10 kill.

Choosing Aura Mastery or Divine Sacrifice shouldn't be an individual decision. It should be a calculated risk keeping in mind what your other paladins have. If you run with 1 holy paladin and you as ret, you'll want Divine Sacrifice. If you run with no holy paladins, you'll want Aura Mastery. If you run with 2 holy paladins, neither of which have DSac, you'll want DSac. If you run with 2 holy/prot paladins who both have DSac, you can choose either.

The above are not hard-and-fast rules, but rather my impressions of the various situations. Retribution gives up very little to snag either cooldown. Holy gives up a great deal of crit and thereby throughput to get DSac, and will have AM regardless. Protection can't use their DSac very much and has a little trouble getting to AM depending on the choices of utility they take. You must take into account raid composition, raid leader cooldown usage strategies, fight length, and damage type when choosing AM vs DSac. It's not as simple as "I got AM and it's GREAT!"


Sorry about forgetting to tag the title :oops: I'm normally pretty good about it (at least remembering to go back and edit it if I forget)

The problem is, I'm normally the ONLY paladin when I raid, and I don't remember the last time I used Dsac to much success. I tried using it on our XT hard mode kill on the tantrums, and it was just a better idea to stop dps and FoL heal whoever had been bombed/gravity'd a couple of times instead. Even with Dsac + Bubble up, They were dieing.

The main thing that I love about Aura Mastery is that it's 1 cooldown. When I use DS, I have to make sure that I haven't wings'd recently, that DS is ready, and that I'm not going to need the wings in the next 30 seconds, all the while using 2 gcd's and and 2 cooldowns.

IF i had another paladin with me on a regular basis, I would gladly work out a strategy, but there are currently 2 raiding paladins in guild, and we don't raid together that much. When he is holy, he has Aura Mastery, and when he is ret he has Vindication (I still have IMP. Might.... Maybe I should have swapped that too... eh, we have more warriors :) )

I would debate the holy always having Aura Mastery... I have run into many a holy paladin who just don't see the merit in the button.
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Re: [Ret-PvE] I did it. I respecc'd 11/5/55.

Postby Joanadark » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:03 pm

Having an AM and a DSac to couple together for predictable raid burst is excellent and was one of the key factors in my guild getting 25-man Freya 3-knock down in one night of attempts, as well as Vezax-25 hard in one night, and cementing an Algalon-10 kill.


A minor nitpick concerning AM for General Vezax.
Using Shadow Aura Mastery during the animus actually isnt as good as it should be. For some reason, shadow resistance only affects the BASE damage of Profound Darkness, not the end damage affected by the stacks. General Vezax was one of only two fights I've ever speced DSac for on progression in ulduar. The other being Firefighter.

If you run with 1 holy paladin and you as ret, you'll want Divine Sacrifice. If you run with no holy paladins, you'll want Aura Mastery. If you run with 2 holy paladins, neither of which have DSac, you'll want DSac. If you run with 2 holy/prot paladins who both have DSac, you can choose either.


I dont think it can be as clean cut as that. It depends more on the fight, and what abilities are in play. For Firefighter and General Vezax hard progress for example, all the paladins in my guild went DSac. For Freya and Algalon, all of us were Aura Mastery.
Hard Mode CC is 100% an Aura Mastery instance. Almost every fight massively favors AM.

Holy gives up a great deal of crit and thereby throughput to get DSac, and will have AM regardless.


While an appropriately geared and speced holy paladin will indeed have AM regardless, the ret spec to pick up the 8% crit is pretty much dead. With the spell power levels we are currently reaching, going into prot for Divine Guardian to increase Sacred Shield outweighs the crit build completely. Our longevity is to a point where that crit provides almost nothing significant anyway, and there is no throughput arguement to be made about a few % spell crit compared to a flat increase of a powerful absorbtion shield.
If you need burst throughput as a holy paladin you use wings or a trinket or divine favor, you dont pray for crits, particularly when our crit from gear is already so good anyway all by itsself.
A lot of holys are actually gearing for spell power and haste over endurance stats like crit and even int now, even after the regen hit this patch. There is no reason for any holy paladin who isnt massively undergeared to still be running the crit spec. You lose too much.

The main thing that I love about Aura Mastery is that it's 1 cooldown. When I use DS, I have to make sure that I haven't wings'd recently, that DS is ready, and that I'm not going to need the wings in the next 30 seconds, all the while using 2 gcd's and and 2 cooldowns.


Not to mention its off the GCD, making it much faster to use reactively, andd doesnt cut your DPS in half for 12 seconds.
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Re: [Ret-PvE] I did it. I respecc'd 11/5/55.

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:09 pm

Joanadark wrote:
While an appropriately geared and speced holy paladin will indeed have AM regardless, the ret spec to pick up the 8% crit is pretty much dead. With the spell power levels we are currently reaching, going into prot for Divine Guardian to increase Sacred Shield outweighs the crit build completely. Our longevity is to a point where that crit provides almost nothing significant anyway, and there is no throughput arguement to be made about a few % spell crit compared to a flat increase of a powerful absorbtion shield.
If you need burst throughput as a holy paladin you use wings or a trinket or divine favor, you dont pray for crits, particularly when our crit from gear is already so good anyway all by itsself.
A lot of holys are actually gearing for spell power and haste over endurance stats like crit and even int now, even after the regen hit this patch. There is no reason for any holy paladin who isnt massively undergeared to still be running the crit spec. You lose too much.


Would this be true of 10 man paladins as well? in the 51/0/20 spec I'm rocking, I'm at 2100 spellpower, 22k mana in uld10 gear unbuffed.

The main thing that I love about Aura Mastery is that it's 1 cooldown. When I use DS, I have to make sure that I haven't wings'd recently, that DS is ready, and that I'm not going to need the wings in the next 30 seconds, all the while using 2 gcd's and and 2 cooldowns.


Not to mention its off the GCD, making it much faster to use reactively, andd doesnt cut your DPS in half for 12 seconds.



Yes. Those also factored greatly into my decision to go for it. When we get to working on Vezax25 I will look at having a Dsac build for that, but we onyl have

FL2
XT
Hodir

hard modes on 10 man done so far.
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Re: [Ret-PvE] I did it. I respecc'd 11/5/55.

Postby Joanadark » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:20 pm

Would this be true of 10 man paladins as well? in the 51/0/20 spec I'm rocking, I'm at 2100 spellpower, 22k mana in uld10 gear unbuffed.


that depends. how frequently do you find yourself running oom? If the answer is alot, are you making use of plea effectively already? (using it during all obligitory movement periods, using it preemptively early and not waiting until you have an empty tank, popping Divine Illum/wing/trinkets at once to allow heavier ssustained spamming when using it during normal healing periods)

There is a place for crit stacking, but that place is when you simply dont have the gear to maintain your output for the length of time your guild takes to kill things, for whatever reason that may be.

As far as tank survivability is concerned though, the prot spec sub-spec is clearly better. Some crit chance would never in a million years compete with a beefed and lengthened absorbtion shield and access to Dsac.
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Re: [Ret-PvE] I did it. I respecc'd 11/5/55.

Postby Earantur » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:49 pm

Joanadark wrote:
As far as tank survivability is concerned though, the prot spec sub-spec is clearly better. Some crit chance would never in a million years compete with a beefed and lengthened absorbtion shield and access to Dsac.

6% damage reduction isn't a kick in the teeth either.
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