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"A treatise on Paladin Tanking"

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Postby Aergis » Wed May 30, 2007 1:08 pm

On the defensive side, the paladin is no protection warrior


I stopped reading there. There really is a very small margin, and by very small I mean 1-2%. Yes, while each attack that lands the warrior will take 4% less damage from 10% def stance compared to our 6%, 50% or so attacks will completely missed / dodged / parried, which both classes get 0% damage.

After that, it's a matter of looking at armor and block val, compared to other stats like dodge / parry / etc. As Kathryn said, I have more armor than most T4 warriors ( 17k with mark ). I am also at almost 14k completely unbuffed. Just kings puts me at 15k. Fully buffed with shout I'm at 18.5k, 500 hp below my warrior counterpart.

So I almost make up 1% pure DR from armor alone, and am short 500 hp ( which I could make up with a furies deck and curator pants ). The differences are really negligable. It's like a warrior taking with one less item upgrade ( say using crest of shat'ar vs aldori legacy defender ).


The real problem comes in with imp demo shout and imp thunderclap. If a warrior tanks he can have these with plenty of rage to spare for threat gen, and they reduce melee damage taken by ALOT. However if a paladin is tanking, it is much harder for the warrior to keep up, as he is either OTing and not taking damage ( no rage generation ) or trying to DPS in a prot spec ( like our dps in prot spec, not very good ) and doesn't have the rage to spare if he wants to even be mediocre dps.



And as for this
They're dumb.


Believe it or not, they aren't, unless they are speccing for a specific boss like Hydross. The benefits of the other talents either reduce damage far more often occurances ( melee ) or increase threat via rage generation / expenditure. Hell, the warrior MT of Nihilum, one of the furthest progressed guilds in the game, doesn't take any points in imp defensive stance. I'd link his armory profile but the wow-euro armory isn't loading for me right now.
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed May 30, 2007 3:10 pm

Aergis wrote:And as for this
They're dumb.


Believe it or not, they aren't, unless they are speccing for a specific boss like Hydross. The benefits of the other talents either reduce damage far more often occurances ( melee ) or increase threat via rage generation / expenditure. Hell, the warrior MT of Nihilum, one of the furthest progressed guilds in the game, doesn't take any points in imp defensive stance. I'd link his armory profile but the wow-euro armory isn't loading for me right now.


I'd have to seriously question what he's doing with his points to not be able to spare 2 for Imp Def Stance.
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Postby Lore » Wed May 30, 2007 3:21 pm

1) It's 3 points, not 2

2) There's a fair amount of other things they could spend it on

3) You're comparing apples to oranges. Warriors can get the extra mitigation on spell damage, yes, but they don't need it. Stuff can be spell reflected, and they have a higher HP pool. There's plenty of things, particularly for a warrior who primarily OT's, that are more useful than saving 1 or 2k damage over the course of a fight.
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Postby Everlight » Wed May 30, 2007 4:18 pm

Yeah, there's so much wrong with that post that I don't really know where to start.

Pretty much everything's been covered above, so the best I can really do is throw in my two cents and say stuff like QFT L2P etc :P

Seriously though, Paladins are tanking endgame stuff. Paladins are being selected as primary tank choices. Paladins are MT'ing. Hell, Paladins are MT'ing in The Eye, mana drainers be damned.

It's there, it's happening, no amount of naysaying is going to make it not true.
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Postby anariana » Thu May 31, 2007 4:12 am

Lore, is the gear you have right now in armory the gear you've use in the Eye, or are you still in recovery phase?
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 31, 2007 7:00 am

Lore wrote:1) It's 3 points, not 2

2) There's a fair amount of other things they could spend it on

3) You're comparing apples to oranges. Warriors can get the extra mitigation on spell damage, yes, but they don't need it. Stuff can be spell reflected, and they have a higher HP pool. There's plenty of things, particularly for a warrior who primarily OT's, that are more useful than saving 1 or 2k damage over the course of a fight.


1) You are correct, my mistake.

2) Such as?

3) True, they do have Spell Reflect available to them. Realistically with the recent damage nerfs to heroic mobs that do spell damage auto attacks it may not be as big a deal with Spell Reflect around, though I don't know how hard 25 man elementals hit. It may be worth it JUST for fights like Void Reaver or Al'ar. However I don't see why you'd simply skip it unless you weren't speccing to MT. Sure, a warrior who's primarily OT shouldn't lose any sleep over it, but in my experience such a person should be ready to step into the MT spot at any time for any reason. That includes being specced for it.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 8:39 am

Sabindeus wrote:3) True, they do have Spell Reflect available to them. Realistically with the recent damage nerfs to heroic mobs that do spell damage auto attacks it may not be as big a deal with Spell Reflect around, though I don't know how hard 25 man elementals hit. It may be worth it JUST for fights like Void Reaver or Al'ar. However I don't see why you'd simply skip it unless you weren't speccing to MT. Sure, a warrior who's primarily OT shouldn't lose any sleep over it, but in my experience such a person should be ready to step into the MT spot at any time for any reason. That includes being specced for it.


Elemental melee "spell" damage is not affected by imp. defensive stance (or spell warding, for that matter). We haven't done Al'ar yet, and it's somewhat nice for Solarian, but I don't see how it would at all be useful for Void Reaver - tanks take nothing but physical damage through that whole encounter. And your spec can be changed quite easily if necessary.

Beyond that it's pretty much flavor options. Warriors get to play around with their standard spec quite a bit more than we do. They don't have the innate threat advantage that we do, so a lot of warriors go for things like Imp. Heroic Strike and Cruelty to maximize their threat output. Personally, I would consider a 5% average increase on Shield Slam and white damage threat, for a warrior, to be superior to 6% reduced spell damage.
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Postby Kathryn » Thu May 31, 2007 8:41 am

Sabindeus wrote:However I don't see why you'd simply skip it unless you weren't speccing to MT.


Those 3 points can be better spent elsewhere. There is not only bosses in instances, You MT isn't gonna be a dead weight on trash mobs too.. The minus rage talents helps with aggro when rage isn't unlimited, and to imp taunt helps a lot too with de-aggro mobs as well.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 9:01 am

anariana wrote:Lore, is the gear you have right now in armory the gear you've use in the Eye, or are you still in recovery phase?


As of right now, yes, the gear in my armory is my standard tanking gear. I swap pieces in and out a lot depending on the fight, though.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 31, 2007 9:16 am

Kathryn wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:However I don't see why you'd simply skip it unless you weren't speccing to MT.


Those 3 points can be better spent elsewhere. There is not only bosses in instances, You MT isn't gonna be a dead weight on trash mobs too.. The minus rage talents helps with aggro when rage isn't unlimited, and to imp taunt helps a lot too with de-aggro mobs as well.


Anyone who skips Focused Rage or Imp Sunder is dumber than someone who skips Imp Def Stance.

Skipping Imp Taunt I could see due to the disturbingly large percentage of mobs that are both not tauntable and nontrivial to control otherwise.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 31, 2007 9:17 am

Lore wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:3) True, they do have Spell Reflect available to them. Realistically with the recent damage nerfs to heroic mobs that do spell damage auto attacks it may not be as big a deal with Spell Reflect around, though I don't know how hard 25 man elementals hit. It may be worth it JUST for fights like Void Reaver or Al'ar. However I don't see why you'd simply skip it unless you weren't speccing to MT. Sure, a warrior who's primarily OT shouldn't lose any sleep over it, but in my experience such a person should be ready to step into the MT spot at any time for any reason. That includes being specced for it.


Elemental melee "spell" damage is not affected by imp. defensive stance (or spell warding, for that matter). We haven't done Al'ar yet, and it's somewhat nice for Solarian, but I don't see how it would at all be useful for Void Reaver - tanks take nothing but physical damage through that whole encounter. And your spec can be changed quite easily if necessary.

Beyond that it's pretty much flavor options. Warriors get to play around with their standard spec quite a bit more than we do. They don't have the innate threat advantage that we do, so a lot of warriors go for things like Imp. Heroic Strike and Cruelty to maximize their threat output. Personally, I would consider a 5% average increase on Shield Slam and white damage threat, for a warrior, to be superior to 6% reduced spell damage.


What makes you think that attacks that hit as Physical and damage as Magic are not reduced by Spell Warding/Imp Def Stance?
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 9:33 am

I specced into spell warding a while ago thinking it would reduce incoming magical melee damage. The mobs I was thinking of at the time were the arcane elementals in Karazhan. After speccing into it, not noticing much of a difference in incoming damage, and making some sort of comment regarding that to other tanks, I was told "Yeah imp defensive stance doesn't work on them either." I haven't found any actual data on it, so I suppose it could be incorrect.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 31, 2007 10:53 am

Lore wrote:I specced into spell warding a while ago thinking it would reduce incoming magical melee damage. The mobs I was thinking of at the time were the arcane elementals in Karazhan. After speccing into it, not noticing much of a difference in incoming damage, and making some sort of comment regarding that to other tanks, I was told "Yeah imp defensive stance doesn't work on them either." I haven't found any actual data on it, so I suppose it could be incorrect.


Hm. Perhaps I'll use some of my newfound daily quest money to respec and test this.
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