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[Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Earantur » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:26 pm

Joanadark wrote:hybrid dpsers have a nasty habit of excusing bad play by telling themselves "i'm just a hybrid, I'm designed to do less dps than the pures", without stopping to question whether the pures are even playing optimally.
We have a shadow priest with that attitude and it drives me crazy, particularly given how absolutely incredible shadow priests are capable of being.

I see this sorta thing alot with Elemental / Balance / Shadow spec players. "My DPS will never compare to the mages, but I bring X buff"
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Proudfoot » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:42 pm

Joanadark wrote:hybrid dpsers have a nasty habit of excusing bad play by telling themselves "i'm just a hybrid, I'm designed to do less dps than the pures", without stopping to question whether the pures are even playing optimally.
We have a shadow priest with that attitude and it drives me crazy, particularly given how absolutely incredible shadow priests are capable of being.


I don't really understand why Blizz has this design in place but w/e. If I beat everyone then they just say that I'm OP for being able to beat pures and that I'll get nerfed soon. Nobody can admit that they aren't playing optimally. Hybrids aren't the only ones guilty of excusing bad play. I'm always #1 in my guild but I know I'm in a bad guild.

If I'm not #1 in a raid I'll work even harder to get there. If a hybrid consistently beats me then I assume that they are very skilled and likely outgear me. If a pure class beats me consistently by large margins with a similar gear level what are you supposed to assume? I assume they are playing a better class because Blizzard has said so. That whole 5% better than hybrids thing is bogus. Prior to 3.2 rogues/locks would beat me by large margins. I don't make excuses, the fact is pure classes were designed to do more damage even if we play perfectly. Things are better now but I still don't like sucking at AOE.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Lore » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:53 am

If a pure class is beating you consistently by a large margin, then either:

a) the fight caters to their class more than yours (fairly common)
b) they're just better than you

The 5% number is just a ridiculous misquote -- Ghostcrawler was in the middle of explaining why they'd never nail it down to an exact percentage when he said it. The reality of the situation is this: No fight exists where a 5% base difference would be detectable.

Everything is subjective to encounter design. DK's were considered subpar tanks until people started working on 3-drake, and then they became "the best" tanks basically overnight. If Ret Paladin mechanics lined up so that we did the most damage on, say, Vezax or Hodir, people would say we're "the best" DPS. Nevermind the Freyas and the Yoggs, whoever does the most damage on the DPS race encounter is "the best DPS class."

Every time someone says "I do ________ DPS", I kill a kitten. And I happen to like kittens. Please, make me stop.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Baelor » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:11 am

Lore wrote:Every time someone says "I do ________ DPS", I kill a kitten. And I happen to like kittens. Please, make me stop.

I frequently start whining in gchat when someone whispers me for a PUG I'm leading saying "invite please ____ DPS (class)."

Context is important.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Threatco » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:44 am

My guilds top single target dps is a Ret. But he is also the most geared, 2680 whr or something crazy like that.

His name is Xenonz on my server. check em out.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Lore » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:48 am

Baelor wrote:
Lore wrote:Every time someone says "I do ________ DPS", I kill a kitten. And I happen to like kittens. Please, make me stop.

I frequently start whining in gchat when someone whispers me for a PUG I'm leading saying "invite please ____ DPS (class)."

Context is important.


Alas, I pine for the days of yore when we just said something like "3/8 T2" or "+800 shadow".
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Baelor » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:57 am

Lore wrote:
Baelor wrote:
Lore wrote:Every time someone says "I do ________ DPS", I kill a kitten. And I happen to like kittens. Please, make me stop.

I frequently start whining in gchat when someone whispers me for a PUG I'm leading saying "invite please ____ DPS (class)."

Context is important.


Alas, I pine for the days of yore when we just said something like "3/8 T2" or "+800 shadow".

Bite your tongue, you filthy magic-addicted nostalgic elf. I ain't taking no steps back into yester-year, my damage and tanking are finally interactive affairs.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby fafhrd » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:58 am

*bites lore's tongue obligingly*
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Joanadark » Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:48 pm

Baelor wrote:
Lore wrote:Every time someone says "I do ________ DPS", I kill a kitten. And I happen to like kittens. Please, make me stop.

I frequently start whining in gchat when someone whispers me for a PUG I'm leading saying "invite please ____ DPS (class)."

Context is important.


invite please I do X DPS on Thaddius.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Lore » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:27 pm

Baelor wrote:Bite your tongue, you filthy magic-addicted nostalgic elf. I ain't taking no steps back into yester-year, my damage and tanking are finally interactive affairs.

I definitely didn't say "I wish I could time travel back to patch 1.3"

I couldn't even be a Paladin then.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Baelor » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:59 pm

Joanadark wrote:
Baelor wrote:
Lore wrote:Every time someone says "I do ________ DPS", I kill a kitten. And I happen to like kittens. Please, make me stop.

I frequently start whining in gchat when someone whispers me for a PUG I'm leading saying "invite please ____ DPS (class)."

Context is important.


invite please I do X DPS on Thaddius.

See, I know you're joking JD. The people who actually whisper me that are not.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Proudfoot » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:26 pm

Lore wrote:If a pure class is beating you consistently by a large margin, then either:

a) the fight caters to their class more than yours (fairly common)
b) they're just better than you
c) they are better geared than you

The 5% number is just a ridiculous misquote -- Ghostcrawler was in the middle of explaining why they'd never nail it down to an exact percentage when he said it. The reality of the situation is this: No fight exists where a 5% base difference would be detectable.


Fix'd
I guess the term "Large margins" is rather loose though. In 3.1 when I was pulling 4.5k+ and rogues/locks were pulling 6k+ I think that's large and it irritated me.

It may be true that the 5% thing was a misquote. However, Ghostcrawler has said on many occasions that a "pure" class has no other option so they will naturally be better at dps. I'm at work or I'd cite sources.

You can't tell me that prior to 3.2 we were considered equal dps to rogues and the only reasons we'd lose to them is they are "better" or the fights cater to them.

I've just recently gotten some 219 gear so I think I put up really good numbers considering.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Sagedin » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:07 am

Looking back at last reset, I can say that we are top single target dps as long as we can keep corruption/vengeance from falling off and there are no freaky buffs going around. Unfortunately those fights hardly exist, excepting Algalon I suppose. And on that fight I have no problem staying in the top5 (25 man). Can't seem to do more dps then those sneaky rogues with their Tricks of the Trade inner circle though :wink: .

Looking at Ulduar there is just one fight (phase) where I feel frustrated and that is in the brain room from Yogg-Saron, especially with fewer watchers (had a couple of tries on "Alone" which really shows the dependance of corruption stacks to do decent dps).
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Joanadark » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:01 am

Rogues and Arms Warriors should still be beating you. Dks and ferals will trade spots with you fairly evenly depending on who has better rng.

Ret paladins have other advantages in Alone in the Dark. You provide a magic/disease/poison cleanse that goes down with the melee group to supplement the one healer. JoL on the boss allows your 4 healers to be able to focus tanks and pretty much ignore deafening roar/lunatic gaze damage raid damage. You are an extra BoP for that all-important pre-portals constrictor (to have full coverage you need two people who can BoP). You are an extra aura mastery for roar allowing you flexibility in your healer comp to prevent 2 holy paladins being manditory.
As far as DPS is concerned, Hand of Reckoning is a massively important tool for yog. glyphed seal of righteousness works just fine for p1 and p2, and SoV is great for p3 because it keeps ticking during gaze.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby andx » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:13 am

Joanadark wrote:Rogues and Arms Warriors should still be beating you. Dks and ferals will trade spots with you fairly evenly depending on who has better rng.

I have yet to find an arms warrior on my server that competes. Usually its me rogue and DK top 3 laying down somewhere in the neighbor hood of high 7ks in 10 mans
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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