Agility gems ever worth it?

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Arcand » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:06 am

Threatco wrote:Because agility wastes itemization on crit, and it provide very little armor, it is not a good gemming option.


But the extra crit increases your DPS, causing the boss to die sooner and thus inflict less overall damage. :D
Arcand
Moderator
 
Posts: 4525
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:15 am

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Isetnefret » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:13 am

But the extra crit increases your DPS, causing the boss to die sooner and thus inflict less overall damage.

This is where I incoherently ramble about str/stam gems having miniscule EH and large DPS boosts, whilst gluing googly eyes to the Godzilla figures that a new guy at work set up all around his office.
Image
Isetnefret . . - . . Gavoryn

Those of you on the port side of the plane can look out and see the Grand Canyon. Those of you on the starboard can look out and see a cloud shaped like a horsey.
User avatar
Isetnefret
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:48 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Veilan » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:24 pm

Cue random inuendo-laden rambling about agility making your toon more flexible.
Ythalaine - Die Aldor EU
Image
User avatar
Veilan
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:01 pm

Threatco wrote:Because agility wastes itemization on crit, and it provide very little armor, it is not a good gemming option.

It doesn't "waste" any itemization on crit. Breaking down 1 agility rating into threat, avoidance, and mitigation components the way you have doesn't make sense, because the point of agility doesn't have to "spend" any of it's itemization on armor. It just gives you armor, dodge, and crit at a certain rate. There's no reason to expect that because Agility gives you x% the threat of a STR gem that it will thus be x% less effective at other things.

Viycktor's analysis is much closer to being correct. But he didn't properly calculate the reduction in incoming damage.

I see that the question you raised in the first post is the one you asked in this thread, which I unfortunately never got back to. I apologize for that, I was on vacation that week. But I'm here now, so let's take a look at it. We can use my current armory as a source of stats.
26,666 armor unbuffed
798 Defense Rating
522 Dodge Rating
309 Parry Rating
152 Agility.

I'll get 230 agi from raid buffs (SoE totem, MotW). Raid-buffed my agility should be 420 after kings (382*1.1).
I'll also get 1807 armor from Improved Devotion aura, 230*1.1*2=506 armor from the agility buffs, and 152*0.1*2=30 armor from the 15 agility I get from the interaction of Kings and my base agiility. That leaves me with a total of 29,009 armor raid buffed.

Using avoid_dr.m, this gives me the following raid-buffed avoidance after diminishing returns:
Dodge: 20.1836%
Parry: 10.7402%
Miss: 4.7612%
Total: 35.6851%

Using avoid_dr.m again, I'll calculate the contribution from 522+10=532 dodge rating and 420 agility. This simulates the amount of dodge you get from a 10 dodge rating gem.
Dodge % goes up to 20.3208, an increase of 0.1354%.

After kings, 10 agility becomes 11 agility, so I'll calculate the same thing for 522 dodge rating and 431 agility:
Dodge % goes up to 20.2976, an increase of 0.1140%.
We also gain 22.44 armor. Normally that would be rounded, but we're going to preserve the decimals so that if someone wants to scale this up the results will still be correct.
That 11 agility also gives us crit, at the rate of 1% crit for 52.0833 agility, for a total of 0.2112% crit (equivalent to 9.6954 points of crit rating).

So the relevant conversions we want are:
10 Dodge Rating = 0.1354% Dodge
10 Agility = 0.1140% Dodge, 22.44 Armor, and 0.2112% crit

To calculate incoming damage, first we have to add in sources that aren't subject to DR, which is 10% dodge, 10% parry, and 5% miss. Thus we end up with our overall base avoidance values:
Dodge: 30.1836%
Parry: 20.7402%
Miss: 9.7612%
Total: 60.6851%


Incoming damage gets reduced as follows:

If the bosses dodge-able attacks do X damage per second, then before either gem is added, you're taking X*(1-0.606851) damage per second (due to the attacks you don't avoid). Adding the dodge gem reduces this to X*(1-0.606851 - 0.001354). So by adding the dodge gem you've reduced your incoming damage by a multiplicative factor of (1-0.0.606851 - 0.001354) / (1-0.0.606851), or 0.996512. In other words, after adding the gem, you're taking 99.6512% the damage you were taking before you added the gem.

So you've added 0.1354% avoidance, but you've actually reduced incoming damage by 0.3488%, not 0.1354%.

Repeating that calculation for the agility gem, you get 99.7101%, or 0.2899% reduced incoming damage due to dodging. However, that incoming damage is now also mitigated by the armor you've added. Using the armor formula
Code: Select all
mitigation_%=(Armor/(Armor+15232.5)
, we have a base mitigation at 29,009 of:
29009/(29009+15232.5)=65.5697%
Bumping this up by 22.44 armor gives us:
29031.44/(29031.44+15232.5)=65.5871%

So before we equipped the gem, we were taking:
X*(1-0.606851)*(1-0.655697) = X*13.5363%

After equipping the gem, we're now taking
X*(1-0.606851-0.001126)*(1-0.647844)=X*13.4902%

For a net reduction of 13.4882/13.5363=99.6595%, or 0.3405%

So in terms of incoming damage, the Agility gem is 97.6% as good as the pure dodge gem, and also gives you critical strike rating.

So, we can stop making snarky comments about how gemming agility is so much worse than dodge, because according to the way you're phrasing it, agility is clearly superior to Dodge in terms of "itemization cost". Every point of agility is equivalent to 0.976 points of dodge rating and 0.96954 points of crit rating. So you're getting almost double the bang for your buck, split nearly evenly between avoidance and threat.

I've written all of this math up in a MATLAB script in case anyone wants to play with it: calc_dodge_v_agil.m. I've also used it to do a little testing of how all of this scales.

The effectiveness value does change with dodge rating, but not much. As dodge rating increases, agility increases in effectiveness up to a maximum of 97.98% at around 1428 dodge rating, and then decreases again.

Image

Similarly, it changes with buffed armor, but in this case it only gets worse as armor improves:

Image

And now that I look back at this monstrosity, it really belongs in Advanced Training. Oh well.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7850
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Threatco » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:46 pm

Haha, perhaps it does belong in advance.

I didn't mean to sound snarky, i just wanted to phrase my arguments as best I could until i got a clearer explanation like yours.

Now I agree that gemming agility is a good idea.

My general guess had been close in the sense that there is ever so little more survivability from dodge. I misjudged how little the difference, and how big the crit bonus was.

Again thanks for clarifying.
:D
Guild Leader of <Oblivion> on Arthas (PvP) US.
Glory of the Icecrown Raider 10 man 03/18/10
Glory of the Ulduar Raider 10 man 08/17/09.
Limitation strictly defined by motivation.
User avatar
Threatco
 
Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:54 am
Location: Moncton, NB

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:55 pm

Threatco wrote:I didn't mean to sound snarky, i just wanted to phrase my arguments as best I could until i got a clearer explanation like yours.


Actually, I don't think anyone in this thread has sounded terribly snarky. I share Arcand's distaste for "the stuff of heroic fantasy" though, as he termed it. :P

Mostly because about half the time, we find out a month down the line that what we thought was suboptimal is actually better overall. Like Agility, for example. :P
Or for that matter, hit and expertise. Remember when it was "common knowledge" that hit and expertise were crap threat stats for us, and that expertise was only worth a miniscule amount of avoidance?

Threatco wrote:Again thanks for clarifying.
:D

No problem, it's what I do. "Theck, Dispeller of Myth and Conjecture."
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7850
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:37 pm

theckhd wrote:No problem, it's what I do. "Theck, Dispeller of Myth and Conjecture."

Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches
Image
The Seeker.
User avatar
Grehn|Skipjack
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 4529
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:53 am
Location: Malorne

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:45 pm

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:
theckhd wrote:No problem, it's what I do. "Theck, Dispeller of Myth and Conjecture."

Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches


also pretty graphs.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5130
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Veilan » Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:01 am

theckhd wrote:Actually, I don't think anyone in this thread has sounded terribly snarky.


I always sound snarky when I avail myself of englishes service, or so I've been told by those with a lesser command of it.

On the topic, I don't buy the heated controversy thesis. I've always used what I happened to learn first as gem recipe and never shed much thought or tears about it. It's Blizzard, both itemisations will work, and work well, it's not like there are many remnants of actual choice left in game. It works, which is at the same time comfortingly easy, and annoyingly dull.

I wanna go roll a titansorc now...
Ythalaine - Die Aldor EU
Image
User avatar
Veilan
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby æ » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:07 pm

Arcand wrote:
Threatco wrote:Because agility wastes itemization on crit, and it provide very little armor, it is not a good gemming option.


But the extra crit increases your DPS, causing the boss to die sooner and thus inflict less overall damage. :D


LOL
10 SIN
20 GOTO HELL
User avatar
æ
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:02 pm
Location: Santa Barbara

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:05 am

Question: Does the armor gained from an Agility gem also get a 10% boost from Toughness? If so, that's a factor that we've overlooked in our analysis, and for the numbers I've used in my calculation above it makes Agility 99.1% as effective as dodge rating.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7850
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Awyndel » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:12 am

Kind of off topic here, but I just remembered I'm using an updated version of the armor vs stamina formula now wich takes toughness and kings/talents into account. I was just recalling how this whole agility gem discussion brought you to dig up that formula in the first place. Might help assess the value of armor ( on gear ) better, wich can obviously be used on this topic.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4152 ... amina.html
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby McSloane » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:48 am

While I agree that in an argument that asks "is agility/stam as good at dodge/stam?" agility edges it out, I've changed my red gem slots from agi/stam gems to parry/stam or straight stamina where the bonus was only 6 stamina. Why?
1) Because witht he Trimph badge libram (200 dodge rating, up almost always), and the amount of dodge on new gear dodge is sky-high;
2) My current on-use trinket (heart of iron) is 432 dodge rating; and
3) If I really love armor I will get the new triumph badge trinket
McSloane
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:35 am

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:09 am

McSloane wrote:While I agree that in an argument that asks "is agility/stam as good at dodge/stam?" agility edges it out, I've changed my red gem slots from agi/stam gems to parry/stam or straight stamina where the bonus was only 6 stamina. Why?
1) Because witht he Trimph badge libram (200 dodge rating, up almost always), and the amount of dodge on new gear dodge is sky-high;
2) My current on-use trinket (heart of iron) is 432 dodge rating; and
3) If I really love armor I will get the new triumph badge trinket

Unless you have a lot more parry dodge on gear than I do, dodge will still give you more avoidance point-for-point. The rule of thumb is that:
Code: Select all
(character_sheet_dodge_% - 10) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 10) = 1.88

If you plug your character sheet dodge and parry % into that formula and come up below 1.88, you should be gemming dodge (or agility) instead of parry.

<edit> corrected mistype. I have parry on the brain.
Last edited by theckhd on Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7850
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:13 am

Awyndel wrote:Kind of off topic here, but I just remembered I'm using an updated version of the armor vs stamina formula now wich takes toughness and kings/talents into account. I was just recalling how this whole agility gem discussion brought you to dig up that formula in the first place. Might help assess the value of armor ( on gear ) better, wich can obviously be used on this topic.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4152 ... amina.html


So for paladins, the formula should be
Code: Select all
           12.54(K+A/1.1)                     
1 stamina: ------- points of armour
              H

So at my gear level, estimating my buffed HP at 45k since I can't remember what it is:
12.54*(16635+29009/1.1)/45000 = 11.9846, or roughly 1 stam = 12 armor.

In any event, that doesn't change the code I wrote, since it didn't use that formula at all. The factor of 1.1 does though (again, makes Agility increase from 97% to 99% as good at reducing incoming damage).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7850
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

PreviousNext

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest