[Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Soliro » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:13 am

What the hell is is it with people from Doomhammer on this site all of a sudden!

Some logs for a bit more comparison to DKS/Wars/Rogues (Ret is my off spec by the way but still gives a good idea) -

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0CUL ... 944&e=6522 - recent XT HM Tank and Spank kill

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0CUL ... 74&e=10654 - 11831 DPS on Hodir - one i'm pretty proud of tbh
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Kiorken » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:54 am

My DPS is usually on par with the rest of melee dps, but what made a huge difference for me is an addon called, Serious Help in Timing. Once you set up your priorities for the FCFS rotation system, it lets you know with HUGE symbols, what to cast next...very, very, very helpful.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby fafhrd » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:52 am

Psykewne wrote:Ret paladins are far and away one of the strongest dps in raids right now. I'm ranking anywhere within the top 5 on algalon 25 man in raids with 3 rogues and a feral druid.

Our reliance on the 13% spell damage buff has been increased with the patch so ensuring this buff is supplied by a lock, boomkin or unholy dk is somewhat key to maximising our performance. It certainly seems that our reliance on a very small buffset for our biggest gains and having most other buffs like sunder etc... being comparatively less effective than for other classes means we perform very well in all manner of 10man variations too.


Meter rankings on algalon 25 are somewhat misleading though, since several of your ranged DPS are having to do poor dps by killing undebuffed and mobile stars. Better straight up comparisons are P3 of steelbreaker last (you can select just p3 easily enough on WoL so you don't have meters skewed by runes of power or movement in p1/p2) where everyone is on the same fully debuffed target and no one is moving. Ignis is a decent comparison too between people who aren't potted. And Lord Jaraxxus if you're doing the ignore-adds-zerg-boss strat, although there'll be some incidental aoe on adds and of course spellstolen buffs for mages.

Paladins aren't the only class heavily reliant on 13% spell damage buff in addition to physical damage buffs btw. Rogues, 2 specs of DKs hunters and enhancement shamans all benefit from that quite a lot too. Not sure how it ranks for rogues/dks/pallies, but it's almost as big a DPS buff for hunters as sunder is (especially in 10 mans).
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Drae » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:26 am

Our fury warrior and our rogues top dps on most fights where they're not at a significant disadvantage. I'm usually just below them, about on par with a feral druid and a death knight.
I've managed just over 6.6k DPS on Algalon - obviously some of that was DS/consecrate damage to adds, but then again the warrior that beat me had about the same percent of 'cleave' damage (the rogues' damage was 100% on the boss). Best I've managed on Vezax (hard mode) so far is about 6.2k, and Kologarn a bit under 8.4k (that's without a pally tank, apparently our seal procs off their stacks but I haven't been able to test it).
If only I could obtain an upgrade to my [Hammer of Crushing Whispers] and stop my internet connection from being so terrible and laggy, I'm sure my damage would pick up a bit more.

Gear, assuming it's showing the right stuff: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... Draelladin
Yes I have a large overabundance of hit - up until recently I was expertise soft-capped without the glyph and my hit was just right, but once I obtained the belt and neck, Rawr told me to gear this way so I did. I'm assuming it's because those pieces are better in general because of the extra strength/crit despite the almost wasted hit.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Joanadark » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:50 pm

Meter rankings on algalon 25 are somewhat misleading though, since several of your ranged DPS are having to do poor dps by killing undebuffed and mobile stars.


Several? How many star killers do you guys use? We use only two, and only because two people can coordinate burst more controllably than one, and as a result they spend a significant amount of time DPSing the boss.
One ranged DPS is perfectly capable of solo star killing, with maybe a little bit of help on the very first one.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby fafhrd » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:51 pm

Joanadark wrote:
Meter rankings on algalon 25 are somewhat misleading though, since several of your ranged DPS are having to do poor dps by killing undebuffed and mobile stars.


Several? How many star killers do you guys use? We use only two, and only because two people can coordinate burst more controllably than one, and as a result they spend a significant amount of time DPSing the boss.
One ranged DPS is perfectly capable of solo star killing, with maybe a little bit of help on the very first one.


We use none, because we fail at freya hard and can't unlock him on 25 >.>

On 10 we use 1, I assumed from the videos people use more than 1 on 25. Disregard above comment if you really manage with just a couple DPS.

Even if it's just 1 on 25, I suspect I'd get saddled with it since I do it on 10, taking me out of the running for crushing the melee like I probably would if just left on the boss (algalon is a near perfect fight for MM hunters - low predictable amounts of movement, single-target, slightly over 5 minutes in duration, trackable, full buffs and debuffs, no distractions other than DPS, no magical buffs to prop up casters, no melee issues to gimp/kill pet, no weakness phases to help classes with short cooldowns).

Our ret pallies are nowhere close to top 5 on any non-aoe fight though :/ WTB your ret pallies.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Joanadark » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:21 pm

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/7099906#damageout
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-dAGf4 ... 84&e=11369

Heres the log from our Algalon kill this week. Fairly messy kill on 2nd attempt. I came in 5th on damage done to the boss when you eliminate useless add padding.

Heres a better example of my DPS on an Ignis kill.
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/7101981#damageout
When you eliminate add padding, i clocked in at 7010 DPS. Thats with the misfortune to get potted during heroism towards the end. Before that happened I was on track for at least a #3 parse for paladins on wmo. As it was, I came #7. I am still using a 232 DPS weapon.

Generally, on a good stand-and-burn where the mages are able to do their full potential, I come in somewhere around 4th or 5th on our DPS spread, ever-so-slightly above the near-full ulduar BiS feral. Add in a movement componant to the fight and I generally come in 2nd or 3rd.
I suck at AOE and target-rich environments like Freya however. I used to feel overpowered at freya, now I'm meh.

Here's another good log to look at. Our Jerexxas Kill from this week. Note that our Marks Hunter and I did almost exactly the same DPS (7107 and 7104 respectively). My place on the damage spread is fairly typical for most fights.
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/7063448#damageout
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby fafhrd » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:25 pm

Yeah, you do plenty more dps than our rets pull. Don't have ignis or algalon parses to compare to (no alg key, and last time we killed ignis no one flasked or well fed so the ret came in at 5.7k on a 4 minute fight :S http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/Bike ... =601&e=831).

Looking at your P3 only dps though for Steelbreaker last: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-dAGf4 ... 645&e=9726

you were at 7.5k dps compared to our ret at only 5.9: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/adi8 ... 02&e=11408

This was a somewhat offspec ret guy though at the end of tank-and-healer-DC-rotation-night so not sure how his gear compares.

Can't compare lord jaraxxus either, we didn't have any ret pallies this week for ToC (wtb 3% damage and JoW :( ). Your hunter spent a fair bit of time dpsing adds though, which is staggeringly bad for MM, so he'd likely have beaten you on that if he got to sit on the boss. In fact I'm not sure how your hunters are behind you on steelbreaker given their Jaraxxus performance, Balgrouge has very good gear and I'd imagine the other is similar.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Perrigrin » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:53 am

very interesting stats:

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/classrank/dps/7/0/3/320

That's the top 50 dps'ers for each fight for all the logged fights.

We do end up at the back-end most of the time - and never higher than 5th (I think), which either indicates that we do indeed do worse dps, or that retn0bs just suck more in general (or potentially non of the fights is set up to benefit us the most).
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby fafhrd » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:00 am

Under maintenance, can't see.

Do people really use wowmeteronline much anymore? Everyone I know switched to worldoflogs as soon as it came out. So much faster and usually easier to use (just no TPS meters, but I'm not sure how accurate wmo's ones were either).
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Joanadark » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:54 pm

wowmeteronline is nice because you can isolate "Boss DPS", and see the actual useful damage output of the raid and eliminate non-contributory add-padding. For example, on ignis alot of people just tank all the adds on top of the boss so everybody can AOE and spam FoK and look really good on meters, but all that damage does nothing.
Even if you arent padding intentionally, alot of fights feature padding, like Algalon where all the adds spawn at the end and some classes look better than they actually are simply cause they bladestormed/consecrated/living bombed all the adds by accident.
Enemy damage taken is a far better tool to analyze a DPSer than overall Damage Dealt.

World of Logs on the other hand is good because it gives you more control over the data, allowing you to look at only specific portions of fights. Examples are healing done in p2 mimiron only, or damage dealt in p3 yog saron.
Both are useful tools.


Oh and Balrouge prolly should do better, but he's kinda busy disengadging into black holes and spin up. He could use some competition, which is why we're recruiting hunters.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby fafhrd » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:15 pm

Competition is important yeah. We did most of BT/hyjal with me as the only hunter, happy with being in the top 3-4 most fights. Wasn't until we recruited someone a bit before sunwell and he could keep up with me in much worse gear that I fixed a lot of sloppy things I was doing, and he kept me on my toes the rest of the expansion after he caught up in gear. It's deceptive how close to optimal you think you're playing until you see someone doing better.

We suck at retaining hunters though, and have had a new batch other than me for pretty much every pair of tiers since AQ40. Just lost a very high DPS one we had through T7 and most of ulduar, so I guess I'm going to start sliding down again.

Our rets have never really had other rets to compete against (hint is the only mainspec ret, the others are usually healers) so maybe they're in a rut from lack of competition too.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby andx » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:20 pm

fafhrd wrote:Our rets have never really had other rets to compete against (hint is the only mainspec ret, the others are usually healers) so maybe they're in a rut from lack of competition too.

I'm the only main spec ret in our guild and i compete with the rogues DK's and mages on most fights, when they beat me by 100-200 dps i remind them that i bring more than biscuits to the raid. then next fight i HoP whoever beat me then BLAMO i'm on top. :D
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby Joanadark » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:21 pm

hybrid dpsers have a nasty habit of excusing bad play by telling themselves "i'm just a hybrid, I'm designed to do less dps than the pures", without stopping to question whether the pures are even playing optimally.
We have a shadow priest with that attitude and it drives me crazy, particularly given how absolutely incredible shadow priests are capable of being.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] How does our DPS rank in ulduar?

Postby amh » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:54 pm

Joanadark wrote:hybrid dpsers have a nasty habit of excusing bad play by telling themselves "i'm just a hybrid, I'm designed to do less dps than the pures", without stopping to question whether the pures are even playing optimally.
We have a shadow priest with that attitude and it drives me crazy, particularly given how absolutely incredible shadow priests are capable of being.


It's very easy to fall into that category, perhaps especially with shadow priests. It's not hard to do "ok" within what seems to be the limits of your class, yet pretty damn hard to excel. I never got past the upper regions of "ok" on my priest, never really got the hang of it.
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