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Agility gems ever worth it?

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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:53 pm

It might also be worth mentioning that str/stam Sovereign gems provide a miniscule amount of EH from the str portion, as well.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Threatco » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:36 pm

About diminshing returns

Ok ill take a stab at this again. Ignoring crit.

You can say X Stamina is = Y
Armor Agility gems give Armor and Dodge. You can get stamina from gems. You can get dodge form gems.
.'. So you can place a gem based value on the armor and dodge you get from Agility.

Before DR Dodge gives much more survival stats in terms of "gem value" then agility.

Example with made up values (close to exact values from first post):
Gemming dodge - 10 survival points (pre DR) = Total of 10
Gemming agility - 7.5 surival points from dodge (pre DR) and 1 survival point from armor = Total of 8.5

Now after 50% Dr (which we can't reach yet)

Gemming dodge gives 5 survival points (post Dr) = Total of 5
Gemming agility gives 3.75 survival points from dodge (post DR) and 1 survival point from armor = Total 4.75

In summary. The armor from agility is far to small to be worth it. If you need the EH badly enough the better option is to gem pure stamina over a red slot. Even if the socket bonus gives you stamina.


As DR takes it's toll, agility becomes better because the armor is still just as good. But even at high levels of DR dodge is better for over all survival stats. And gemming pure stamina makes more sense if you need the extra EH. I concede it is not a big difference. But dodge still always wins over agility unless you want to consider threat.
Last edited by Threatco on Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Isetnefret » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:48 pm

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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Threatco » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:58 pm

I should also say this is based of some of the numbers I got off Thecks post. He had 44k hp buffed (edit). As you get more hp the agil gems become better. But that still is a long time before anyone is ever going to see the little bit of armor from agil make it better then a dodge gem.
Last edited by Threatco on Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Viycktor » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:16 pm

Pre DR:
100 dodge rating yields:
(100/45.25) = 2.21% chance to dodge.

100 agility yields {with kings and armor meta}:
(110/54.45) = 2.02% chance to dodge AND
224 armor - assuming 27K armor (may be a bit low), this changes the physical damage reduction from 27000/(27000+15232.5) = %63.93 to 27224/(27224+15232.5) = %64.12 - or a %0.19 increase in absolute physical mitigation.
This change accounts for (1 - (1- .6412)/(1- .6393)) = 0.53% increased reduction in physical damage (relative to 27K armor).

I think everything is correct up to here unless my agility/dodge coefficients are incorrect... and my armor equation is really off (I think it's a little off, but not certain why ATM, if it's REALLY off, please tell me).


I mean, you really have to decide for yourself... and there's alot more depth of math that can be done here once you take into diminishing returns, the nonlinear nature of armor, and the increased damage reduction over time you get for different stats. And this all depends on your starting stats. The threat is a bonus... but it looks alot more even to me than the 'survival points' seem to indicate. (again, unless I'm horribly off somewhere here)

edit: clarifying the relative damage reduction of armor
Last edited by Viycktor on Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Threatco » Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:40 pm

In your math you wroked with 100 agil Vs 100 rating. In mine I used 10 like from an epic hybrid gem.

In yours the difference is 0.19% dodge vs 224 armor.

How much dodge rating would it take to get 0.19% dodge?

and

How much stamina would it take to get 224 armor worth of EH?

If you were to try to cover that difference with gems. It would take twice as many gems to cover the dodge then it would to cover the EH.

(Dodge from Dodge gem) - (Dodge from Agility) = 2(EH from agility's armor)

It's very "Cheap" to get EH from stamina gems. It's very expensive to get EH from agility gems. Becuase though it gives you some, it costs way too much dodge. If you did need EH it is always better to ignore socket bonus and gem pure 30+ stamina. Otherwise gem dodge or dodge/stamina on reds.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Veilan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:17 am

Threatco wrote:In your math you wroked with 100 agil Vs 100 rating.


And that already doesn't cut it, since it's 110 agility vs. 100 rating, unless you're assuming you're going raiding without king's.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Threatco » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:28 pm

Veilan wrote:
Threatco wrote:In your math you wroked with 100 agil Vs 100 rating.


And that already doesn't cut it, since it's 110 agility vs. 100 rating, unless you're assuming you're going raiding without king's.



100 agility yields {with kings and armor meta}:
224 armor
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Viycktor » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:07 pm

Yeah, I kinda hid it, but kings and the 2% armor meta is in there.

I won't argue that stamina is the superior EH choice. I actually did some napkin math for how much HP I would need (or how hard a boss would have to melee for ) for agility to beat out stam for physical EH, and it wasn't even worth considering at current gear/boss levels. If you're dying from taking one big hit, and the problem can be fixed with gemming, then stam is where you want to look.

The main point I was trying to show (and I used 100 because round-off error can be significant even at 100) is that 100 dodge gives 2.21% dodge.

100 agility gives 2.02% dodge AND 0.19% increased absolute physical mitigation.

So, over a LOONG fight, 100 agility reduces incoming damage by 2.02% (avoided attacks) + 0.19% (mitigated landed attacks) = 2.21% = the dodge granted from 100 dodge rating.

Now, this isn't completely right, because dodge mitigation and armor mitigation can't be added exactly like that, but it's pretty close mitigation AND you get some threat AND the agility gives you a little more physical EH.

But, the absolute mitigation granted by both dodge and armor (not necessarily the relative) degrades as you get more of both. I have to think about how to properly evaluate the mitigation value of armor AND dodge before I come up with some "if your armor is x and dodge is y, then 1 point of agility is worth as much as 1 point of dodge" factor.


aside:
10 dodge: (10/45.25) = 0.221% dodge

10 agility (11 agility):
(11/54.45) = 0.202% dodge
22.44 armor - @ 27K armor you go from %63.932 mitigation to 27022.44/(27022.44+15232.5)=63.951%
result is 0.0191% increased absolute physical mitigation.

One can make the criticism that there isn't fractional armor (I'm not sure if this is true) and that the armor value would be rounded down, however, if you replace TWO gems for +20 agility, it would be rounded up (maybe?) so I'm using fractional armor to be more general.

This is basically the same as with 100 agility because I haven't done any diminishing returns. I'd LIKE to do some parametric comparisons using Matlab ala Theck, but right now time is an issue for me.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:09 am

So, what you're saying is....if there's an advantage or disadvantage, whoever picks the most correct choice is going to be the "winnar" by .01%, relatively speaking?
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Arcand » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:09 pm

Isetnefret wrote:So, what you're saying is....if there's an advantage or disadvantage, whoever picks the most correct choice is going to be the "winnar" by .01%, relatively speaking?


It's all about finding out who's suboptimal, so we can treat them like garbage. That's the stuff of heroic fantasy!
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:18 pm

*Pours tar on self*

I hope your brought feathers.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Threatco » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:45 pm

I would use a single agility hybrid to satify a meta gem req of 1 red in a pure EH set.

But thats it.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Wrathy » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:24 am

I guess I am the outcast here, but I have tons of agi/stam gems in my gear. For me, and as every other discussion on gemming goes, it is a personal choice that increasing your stats holistically is the best way to go. I will agree that in a pure EH set, if you have the ability to gem for pure stam, then do so, however in all of your other sets, it is more than likely hurting you.

I am positive that I have less health than quite a few of our members, but then again i probably have about 3-4% more avoidance and more armor. Its all about a balance, and at 35k unbuffed, I have never had a problem with dying because i was getting hit too hard.

I personally suggest to gem for agi/stam when ever the socket bonus gives you more than 5 stamina. You are getting more out of that socket from an itemization point of view.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Threatco » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:43 am

I respect your personal gearing choices, i only extend my arguement for arguements sake

You get more from an itemazation point of view from a dodge/stam gem. Because agility wastes itemization on crit.

I think the main misconception is how much armor you get from these. A pure agility gem barley uses a 10th of its itemization on armor. Your getting 1/10 parts armor. 6/10 dodge. 3/10 crit. (based on my math in the first post)

If they put more weight on armor and less on crit, it may have a place in some "personal choice" but as it is, its a very weak source of EH.

Because agility wastes itemization on crit, and it provide very little armor, it is not a good gemming option.
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