Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

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Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby Iztli » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:06 pm

I hadn't played my Paladin for a while as I've been leveling up some other alts and my guild needed a healer rather than a tank out of me. I just picked back up and am currently having no problems in 25 man raids. Where I am having serious problems is in heroics or 10 mans when I don't have replenishment. I seem to be running really low on mana when I used to have it in spades. I can get through if I'm really careful with consecration, but its a lot more touch and go than I remember it. Can anyone see a problem with my spec or gear that I could fix?

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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby Corpsicle » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:44 pm

The only thing "wrong" that I'm seeing is you are at 536 defense - under the 540 minimum to not be crit by a raid boss. I'm assuming you either just upgraded a piece or are in a heroics specific set of gear.

Regarding talent spec, you can check out my prot spec - it is aimed quite specifically at General Vezax and mana conservation. Before I swapped to this spec, I always had issues with Vezax, Naxx, and heroics. The combination of 2/2 SA and Benediction does seem to help.

Something that occurs to me is that where you are doing 10 mans and what your group make up is might be the issue. You said when you don't have replenishment you have an issue - and associated that with 10 mans and heroics. That implies that you don't have a retribution paladin along for the ride. If so, are you swapping out Blessing of Sanctuary for Blessing of Kings? And, are you judging Light or Wisdom?

If you aren't using Blessing of Sanctuary, I'd suggest giving that a go for 10s and heroics - it returns a significant amount of mana, even vs a single Boss, over the course of a long fight. Judgement of Wisdom is also a good mana source. I'm assuming since you glyphed Divine Plea you are keeping that up all the time. If you are using Blessing of Sanctuary, and Judgement of Wisdom, and keeping DP up 100%, then I'd look at where you are raiding. Nax 10 and Heroics won't present 'that' much of a threat to you at this point so consider pulling more at one time for mass mana returns from Blessing of Sanctuary. Usually when I get 6+ mobs on me, I can't spend mana faster than it is coming in. Not an option on bosses, but for those managing when you use consecrate and even popping a mana potion halfway through should be enough to get you through comfortably.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby Iztli » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:56 pm

I just picked up the Peacekeeper Blade to replace the Red Sword of Courage, so I was in the middle of swapping gems when I last logged out, hehe. I'm at 540 Defense. I always use BoSanc over Kings on myself, and I always Judge Wisdom for Mana and I'm still having problems.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby Corpsicle » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:29 am

Hmm. Probably you are feeling the loss of replenishment, blessing of kings (int), blessing of wisdom (mp5), and/or arcane intellect. Those all add up together nicely for 25 mans, but can be hard to get consistently in 10s and do add up.

I'd suggest you use the exact spec you have now, except take one point out of Crusade in ret and stick that pont into 2/2 Spirituatl Attunement. Try some raids with no other alterations, see how that feels. If you still have issues, drop points from conviction, heart of the crusader, and 1 point from 2/2 imp judgements and fill out Benediction 5/5. Also, drop consecrate from your rotation the moment you go below say 33% mana ish, and dont' start using it again until over 50% mana. Keep up Divine Plea 100% and double check on movement fights that it hasn't dropped off.

If you are in Nax and/or heroics, pull more. :) Just be sure you warn your group first. For heroics, use seal of wisdom in the timed runs or the places like VH. It is a bit of a dps loss, but then again not being able to do anything is more so.

Ulduar should be less of an issue - you could try to get slightly more block/hit on your gear to have a more threat oriented set and then on pulls you have mana problems with, swap to that. More threat means less of an issue with dropping consecrate, as well as slightly higher damage intake from losing avoidance.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby ulushnar » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:38 am

Iztli wrote:I just picked up the Peacekeeper Blade to replace the Red Sword of Courage, so I was in the middle of swapping gems when I last logged out, hehe. I'm at 540 Defense. I always use BoSanc over Kings on myself, and I always Judge Wisdom for Mana and I'm still having problems.


One thing you haven't mentioned there is Divine Plea. Are you remembering to keep it up as much as is practical? And don't forget judicious use of "sit and crit" on weaker trash.

Even so, you're going to have resource problems on content you overgear. Same as any tank really (except maybe DKs). At least you can drink every few pulls, Warriors and Druids aren't so lucky.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby Florisia » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:34 am

Mana managing in heroics is a bit of a pain, especially when your gear starts getting better and better. You take less damage, and wind up needing less healing, which means less mana recovery from SA. The basics would be Use Divine Plea and try to maximize it uptime, BoSanc, and Judgement of Wisdom.

If heroics are that regular for you, you may want to try glyphing for SHOR. It takes a chunk of mana off of your rotation. You could also wait until low on mana, switch to Seal of Wisdom until you're back at full mana, and switch back to SoV. Just keep an eye on you and your party's aggro, and be prepared to taunt off if they actually manage to pull from you Then there's also being a jerk of a tank, turning your back to something or not using HS for a few seconds to let the damage pile on and freak out the healers. I don't really recommend the last one, unless you're just flat out of options or like annoying your healers. :P
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby Kraziness » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:56 am

Make a sit macro. You'll get crit and then get the mana you may need from the heals. I used to have to spam a sit macro like crazy pre-wotlk heroics.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby Pizbit » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:42 pm

Kraziness wrote:Make a sit macro. You'll get crit and then get the mana you may need from the heals. I used to have to spam a sit macro like crazy pre-wotlk heroics.


Macro? Default keybind is to just hit 'x'.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby Vedge » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:19 am

In heroics i make sure i pull a new trash pack within 15 sec of the previous. That keeps my Divine Plea up all the time. Dropping 1 consecration per trash pack seems enough and having BoSanc keeps me almost always full on mana. Maybe it is an issue with gear. When you are in blues, you take enough dmg to get enough mana from healing, then with better gear you get hit for less and suffer mana problems. At some point though ( like in my case) you start almost not getting hit at all, and get tons of mana through BoSanc. Ret healing is usually enough in most heroics to keep me alive.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby Veilan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:02 am

Yup, the problem is the lack of damage (5-men heroics without healer - perfectly fine). BoSanc doesn't compensate, so chain-pull to keeep divine plea up. Be sure to use critters on the way. Make the replacement for the healer a replenishment supplying class. Even consider using 16mp5 buff-food.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby jokingjimmy » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:19 am

My wife plays a Disc priest. 5 man heroics become even tougher with regards to mana regen, with her mitigation and shields lol.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby galefrae » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:12 pm

Your problem may be that you are not casting Divine Plea before a pull. As this spell returns 25% of your mana over 15 seconds, and has a chance to be refreshed when you land a melee hit. Also if that does not help your mana issues then you need to pull more mobs as every time that you dodge a hit it returns mana back to you. Let me know if this helps you as it has help me to maintain my mana when I solo.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby Florisia » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:46 am

Veilan wrote: Even consider using 16mp5 buff-food.


That's an interesting idea.

Wonder if it'd be worth it if you could easily swap a piece of gear to a good MP5 piece instead, without losing def min and too much of the other important stats. Now I want to go play with that.

Actually, does MP5 bonuses take hits from casting? I don't have any casters over like.. level 30. I know casters have reduced mana regen while they've casting, and shortly after casting as well.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:12 pm

You shouldn't need more than 1 point in Spiritual Attunement. You also should never, ever, put points into Benediction as prot. Put those points into a threat talent. You should also never need mp5 food.

If you have Blessing of Sanctuary and Divine Plea up 100% of the time and are still having mana problems in a heroic, then you likely out-gear the place well enough where you can switch to using Seal of Wisdom without losing threat to your DPS. If you still manage to have mana problems...well...don't consecrate on pulls with 3 or fewer mobs (4 if you have the Glyph of HotR), and/or press your X (sit) key a few times each pull. Another option is to maintain multiple gear sets, and use a block value/rating set for heroics instead of an avoidance set.

galefrae wrote:Actually, does MP5 bonuses take hits from casting? I don't have any casters over like.. level 30. I know casters have reduced mana regen while they've casting, and shortly after casting as well.

MP5 is OO5SR. Meaning, mp5 generates mana while you cast. Mana regen from spirit is what is reduced during casting and for 5 seconds after casting.
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Re: Talent Spec Problem or Gear?

Postby Florisia » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:49 pm

baneoftruth wrote:You shouldn't need more than 1 point in Spiritual Attunement. You also should never, ever, put points into Benediction as prot. Put those points into a threat talent. You should also never need mp5 food.


^ Agreed. The fundamental problem with mana management in heroics is that you're not getting mana back from healing, because you're not taking much sustained damage. Your abilities will still devour that mana rather quickly. I also agree with not using Benediction. The value of it for prot doesn't outweigh what you'd have to give up in its stead. Even if you are having mana problems.

I'm going to see if I can find a piece of MP5 gear that's decent and give that a run, provided it doesn't kill my Def rating. I'll let you guys know how it works out. Lol.

Edit/Update:
Tried it with 2 MP5 items, exchanging out my lowest def items. Stayed 535 def for heroics, but didn't notice a significant difference in mana management from it. I did wind up taking more damage after losing a good chunk of avoidance, but I eventually just switched to SoW and put my gear back on.

It might make a bigger difference if you actually had a sizable chunk of MP5, but I got about 73 MP5 and didn't notice a big enough difference to make it worth making a heroic MP5 set over. I did wind up gaining more mana through Spiritual Attunement, though.

Don't think the mp5 food will make any kind of real noticible difference.
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