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dodge/parry or block?

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dodge/parry or block?

Postby Kainard » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:36 am

I was wondering if I should prefer dodge and parry rating or block rating. I'm asking this because the block rating increases the block percentage much more than what dodge and parry do with their percentage, for this reason atm I'm using
[Wyrmguard Legplates] instead of [Conqueror's Aegis Legguards] and I don't want to replace [Chestguard of the Exhausted] with [Conqueror's Aegis Breastplate] even for a gem reason.
Am I wrong?
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby ulushnar » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:43 am

Dodge and Parry. It's always preferable to not get hit at all.

You have two pieces of a higher item level there, which will net you set bonuses. Unless dropping the old pieces will somehow take you below 540 defense and you have no way to make up the shortfall, take them.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby badgermonkey » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:52 am

The T8.5 chest is FAR better than Chestguard of the Exhausted. I didn't even have to THINK to upgrade that!
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Kainard » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:53 am

Ok thanks
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Lykaon » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:51 am

It's all about total numbers. Get yourself a couple of macros. One that calculates total avoidance and one which calculates your progress towards the block cap.

When deciding between two pieces of gear, watch those numbers. Avoidance needs to go up and up and up. Never make a choice which would lower avoidance to increase the block cap number. Try to keep the block cap as close to 102.4% as you can, but if avoidance is going down to get there then re-think.

Comparing one piece of gear to another is generally an exercise in theorycraft. Without putting it together with all of your other gear and seeing the resulting numbers, you know nothing about it.

One piece of gear may be great for one person and not so great for you. Few people have the entire loot table of level 80 items available to them, so you have to gear towards what you have. Looking at your total avoidance, EH, etc is the only realistic way to do that.

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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 am

Block RATING on gear is pretty much wasted itemization for Paladins, because it's so easy for us to hit 102.4% without it.

Unless a piece of gear with block rating offers some other substantial benefit over another, I avoid it. Tier pieces are obviously the exception, if you want the bonus.

That's from my perspective on an avoidance/EH set. If you want too look at a BV/Threat set, block rating is even more worthless, because my BV/threat set is at about 108%, while my avoidance/EH set is barely at 102% (both unbuffed).

The difference of course, being that my avoidance/EH set has 60ish% avoidance, while my BV/threat set has only 50%, and a crapload of wasted block chance.


Once you hit 102.4%, every extra point of block rating becomes 100% worthless. At 102.4%, every additional point of dodge/parry is not worthless, because you still gain the avoidance, meaning you block less, which is a good thing, since block is our worst case scenario (we don't get regular hits).
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby gokuson » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:24 pm

there are a million threads were i can ask this, but i am wondering for thorim on 10 man, is it worth having a full BV set, with extra block rating? The reason i ask this is due to the unbalancing strike. What i want to know is by how much does avoidance decrease? Since he hits pretty fast, stacking high enough block value along with BR, is it possible to remained block capped through the -100 defense and not get critted through that method? I ask this because our group is always pugging an undergeared tank, and it would be great if i can just solo tank it and make it less hectic for our healers to switch between tanks.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:00 pm

We've dropped him before without me in my full BV/threat set, as the only person tanking him.

I didn't check the numbers, so I can't tell you if it was luck or if the math actually pans out.


I had, at the time, 562 defense, 2700 BV, 79% buffed block/parry/dodge, without HS up, and 34,000 health buffed. (10 man)

I forgot to flask/elixir for the fight, and was eating a fish feast for food buff.

2 healers, 2 off tanks (1 bear hallway, 1 warr helping arena), Me as the MT, and 5 DPS that were all over 3100 dps for last phase of the fight.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby vexryn » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:28 am

gokuson wrote:there are a million threads were i can ask this, but i am wondering for thorim on 10 man, is it worth having a full BV set, with extra block rating? The reason i ask this is due to the unbalancing strike. What i want to know is by how much does avoidance decrease? Since he hits pretty fast, stacking high enough block value along with BR, is it possible to remained block capped through the -100 defense and not get critted through that method? I ask this because our group is always pugging an undergeared tank, and it would be great if i can just solo tank it and make it less hectic for our healers to switch between tanks.


Block Rating and Block Value have nothing to do with being crit due to low defense after Thorim's Unbalancing Strike.

The only way to do this without switching tanks is to have enough defense/resilience gear to be uncrittable AFTER the impact of unbalancing strike. Druids can achieve this in pvp gear. I'm not certain I've ever seen a paladin manage to do so (and if they did, I'm not certain how horrendous threat would survival in the hallway would be, since stacking all that pvp resilience gear will net you NO avoidance).

Bottom line: you need to do the taunts. :)
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby ulushnar » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:08 am

Vexryn wrote:Block Rating and Block Value have nothing to do with being crit due to low defense after Thorim's Unbalancing Strike.

The only way to do this without switching tanks is to have enough defense/resilience gear to be uncrittable AFTER the impact of unbalancing strike. Druids can achieve this in pvp gear. I'm not certain I've ever seen a paladin manage to do so (and if they did, I'm not certain how horrendous threat would survival in the hallway would be, since stacking all that pvp resilience gear will net you NO avoidance).

Bottom line: you need to do the taunts. :)


Factually incorrect. If you have enough BR to hit 102.4% after the -200 def penalty, then you'll be uncrittable as long as holy shield up.

-200 Defense is about -8 block/parry/dodge/miss before diminishing returns. I think therefore you'd need to have about 30% extra block value to be totally uncrittable through imbalancing strike. This would be the same as reaching the passive block cap.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby vexryn » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:14 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Vexryn wrote:Block Rating and Block Value have nothing to do with being crit due to low defense after Thorim's Unbalancing Strike.

The only way to do this without switching tanks is to have enough defense/resilience gear to be uncrittable AFTER the impact of unbalancing strike. Druids can achieve this in pvp gear. I'm not certain I've ever seen a paladin manage to do so (and if they did, I'm not certain how horrendous threat would survival in the hallway would be, since stacking all that pvp resilience gear will net you NO avoidance).

Bottom line: you need to do the taunts. :)


Factually incorrect. If you have enough BR to hit 102.4% after the -200 def penalty, then you'll be uncrittable as long as holy shield up.

-200 Defense is about -8 block/parry/dodge/miss before diminishing returns. I think therefore you'd need to have about 30% extra block value to be totally uncrittable through imbalancing strike. This would be the same as reaching the passive block cap.



I believe you are confusing being block-capped to avoid the old Crushing Blow mechanics with the defense cap for being uncrittable.

All you're doing is ensuring that when you get crit by Thorim for being under the defense cap after an unbalancing strike, the crit is mitigated by your block value.

According to your methodology, I could tank any raid boss with less than 540 defense just by stacking a ton of block rating. Doesn't work so well. :/
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby ulushnar » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:22 am

Vexryn wrote:According to your methodology, I could tank any raid boss with less than 540 defense just by stacking a ton of block rating. Doesn't work so well. :/


Yes, it does. Assuming you never get stunned, have your back turned, miss your shield refresh, lag out or any of the other things that can prevent you from blocking. You can't block a crit. It was an old question circa 2.3 back when all the Defense-light gear from badges/ZA came out. Our argument back then was simply: it's easy enough to get passively crit immune, and it's irresponsible not to.

For Thorim, whilst it's possible to throw together a gimmick set to do it, you'd be just as well getting the second tank you brought along to handle the tunnel/arena split to do it and wearing sensible tanking gear.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby vexryn » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:43 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Vexryn wrote:According to your methodology, I could tank any raid boss with less than 540 defense just by stacking a ton of block rating. Doesn't work so well. :/


Yes, it does. Assuming you never get stunned, have your back turned, miss your shield refresh, lag out or any of the other things that can prevent you from blocking. You can't block a crit. It was an old question circa 2.3 back when all the Defense-light gear from badges/ZA came out. Our argument back then was simply: it's easy enough to get passively crit immune, and it's irresponsible not to.

For Thorim, whilst it's possible to throw together a gimmick set to do it, you'd be just as well getting the second tank you brought along to handle the tunnel/arena split to do it and wearing sensible tanking gear.



So I could tank heroics bosses in a gear set like this: http://www.warcrafter.net/sandbox/146757

And I'd be uncrittable with 490 defense as long as I keep Holy Shield up and/or Redoubt has procced to keep me over 102.4% thanks to the >40% block chance? (no, I didn't gem and enchant the gear example, not that it's necessary in this context)
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby ulushnar » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:01 pm

Heroics? Maybe, but remember those lolaoe packs will eat through your holy shield quickly, and then you'd be crit vulnerable.

and if redoubt and holy shield are up at the same time, each block'll eat a charge from both.
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Re: dodge/parry or block?

Postby vexryn » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:07 pm

Ulushnar wrote:Heroics? Maybe, but remember those lolaoe packs will eat through your holy shield quickly, and then you'd be crit vulnerable.


Yes, I said heroics bosses (i.e., to be talking about tanking stuff that doesn't have enough swings to eat all the Holy Shield charges before the 969 refreshes it).

And hrm... I've still never seen anything on this forum or another that specifically stated being block-capped is an outright alternative to being defense-capped. Do you have any other references on this to direct us towards? I cannot find a single sticky post about block caps or defense caps on these forums indicating that any form of block cap makes you crit-immune (not that I'm going to gear for it necessarily, but this is an interesting point of theorycrafting for me).
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