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[10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

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[10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Bladeheart » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:35 pm

Hi all,

We managed to down yogg 2 weeks ago, and now we're working on ulduar hard modes. We're starting out with Hodir, and we're seem to having problems on dps.

Our group usually consists of the following for the hodir fight

Prot Pally - me
Ret Pally
Feral Druid
Death Knight
Survival Hunter
Marksmanship Hunter
Destro Lock
Shadow Priest
Discipline Priest
Holy Pally/ Resto Shaman (depends who's on)

I told the range to stack up on a beam, except for the Sruv hunter who's assigned to keep up singed. Anyone who gets storm buff would run to the stack. Most of the attempts, the group will do around 3-3.5k dps, except for the surv hunter who'll do 6k. I first tried tanking him near the rare cache. When I kited hodir to where moonbeams are so melee would benefit as well, the DK managed to put out 6k as well.

Any suggestions on how to work this out?

edit: I think dps is freeing everyone at the start and every subsequent flash freeze though. Would skipping some npcs help?
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Re: [10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:37 pm

We found the singe debuff to be > all, so it is critical to get those 25 stacks up as fast as possible, and to keep it at 25 all the time.

Most of the damage should come from your ranged DPS, so it is ciritical they they get as many of the buffs as you can give them.

We free all of the adds for the start of the fight, but on subsequent freezes we only free the one who makes the fires. Range stacks up near the fire so they don't have to hop/strafe.

3-3.5k DPS is very low. We usually have 2-3 DPS over 8k on that fight, with the top at or above 10k. Buff stacking is important, but singe > crit > beam. Our boomkin and warlock do just stupid amounts of damage (and threat!) on that fight.

I would also look at some raid synergy. It would be awesome, for instance, if that feral druid was a boomkin instead. The extra crit would benefit everyone. "Depends who's on" doesn't work in a fight where heroism is practically required. You need a shaman. If you don't have a Draenei in the ranged group, there needs to be one. All ranged should gear for hit with the assumption of the shadowpriest and Draenei hit buffs, in order to maximise spellpower, haste, and crit instead.

I tank Hodir near the rare cache and just leave him there. I circle-strafe to avoid things while leaving him in palce. This is so there are no range issues. Move the boss out of range of your melee DPS for a second and you lose quite a bit of damage from them. They are not the starts of this particular fight, but their damage is still important.

Don't worry about threat cap. This is a DPS race. Instruct your DPS to go all out regardless of anything. If they pull aggro, just taunt it back and enjoy your TPS boost. I use wings early to pre-load threat because I can't depend on getting the storm buff at a convenient time.

It may be you just don't have enough DPS for it. I think if you can't get XT's heart down, you probably don't have the DPS for Hodir, so maybe that's a good hard mode to play with as well.

We've been taking him down for a few weeks now, with usually one or two aborts, but this week we put singe as #1 priority and had him down with 40 seconds to spare. Absolutely smashed him.
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Re: [10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Bladeheart » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:09 pm

I told ranged to prioritize the moonbeams because Ive read so many guides that mention that the benefits from stacking on the beams is a lot. I left the survival hunter onto the campfires because explosive shot is nice when it coems to keeping the singed debuff stacked up.

As for the raid synergy, yeah I'm not a fan of whoever who's on. Thing is majority of my raid group are the core ones. Sadly we dont have a draenei since we're horde. :)

Oh, and just to be clear, when I mentioned starting out on hodir, i meant starting to work to get the algalon disk done. :) We managed to down XT hard, FL 3 towers, and ic medium mode before we attempted Hodir.
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Re: [10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:18 pm

If you did XT then you should have the DPS for Hodir, so it's just a matter of using them.

If you want to do the beams you can, but I suggest you make it an absolute priority to have 25 stacks of singe up before anyone goes beam hunting. One hunter will take a while to put up all 25 stacks, and they drop off when the NPC is frozen. Re-stacking takes time as well.

And from what you are saying, the person who gets to stand still by the cozy fire is out-damaging the people hopping in the beams. That should tell you what you need to know.

Ranged DPS aren't very bright. When you ask them to move or do something other than stand-and-nuke, they get all confused. Hopping and casting at the same time, without accidently cancelling a cast? Not even remotely possible.

They are also distrracted easily by shiny things, particularly ones that could increase their DPS. Stacking singe isn't as sexy as standing in a beam of light like the superstars they are. Certainly unfreezing some scrub NPC can't possibly be as important as nuking the boss.

Unfortunately, the result of such vanity is slow stacking of the unsexy buff which gives everyone a massive magic damage increase (btw, that includes a lot of your damage, and hence a lot of your threat).

So, priorities should be:
1: Un-freeze the NPC.
2: Stack singe to 25.
3: Keep singe at 25.
4: Stack additional buffs where possible.

I recommend kidnapping a Draenei and using it as a buff bitch. The extra 1% hit is nice, plus they are hotter then belf chicks, which is useful in a cold fight like Hodir. They also come in Shaman flavour, which grants heroism (bloodlust, for the goat-challenged).
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Re: [10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Mogget » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:38 pm

make people stack up on the toasty fires instead of the moonlight.
prioritize breaking out the mage and the shaman, ignore the other 2(mage will get them out for you).
if you can have hodir stand near a moonlight for the melee then do that, but don't go overboard trying to find one for them, like Koatanga said, if you are running too much the melee can't dps(good moment to find a beam for them is during flash freeze. locate one and move so hodir runs to the beam after the freeze, unless you are tanking in the corner on the cache).
if melee get storm cloud don't tell them to give it to the ranged people, just tell them to keep dpsing and hope you are luckier with clouds in the next try.

for you the singed buff isn't going to do a whole lot since it only affects magic damage, which means it only benefits the lock and the shadow priest(and half of the ret palas atks and the dk's icy touch. and your threat I guess). However the ability to stand still and go all out instead of having to be jumping and running all over the place is gonna boost the ranged dps considerably.
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Re: [10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Aubade » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:02 am

I've always tanked this with alot of movement.

Basically just reinforce what everyone else said, get all of your ranged to stack on fires and only get near beams if they're near the fire. The singed debuff will help your threat tremenously (I've gotten 27k ShotR Crits and 13-14k non-crits.) making the threat part of the encounter ignorable.

For positioning try to keep the boss in one corner, I'm not saying just stand in 1 spot but try to keep the boss in the area so that the NPC's stay in that area and drop their buffs there.
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Re: [10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Belloc » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:14 am

There are a few tricks to this that will make it much more manageable.

First, yes, make sure you always have a full singed stack (50% extra magic damage, I believe). A hunter can handle this by himself, but it'll be slow going. The best way to do this is to have ranged positioned in a moonbeam by a fire. If ranged are near enough to a fire, they won't have to move around to clear their dot stack.

Next, you should have two groups of people: Melee and ranged. Ranged should all be stacking on top of each other, and melee should be doing the same. Two separate clusters. Healers can position wherever they'd like (usually in a moonbeam), but they need to be prepared to move to the melee and ranged cluster if they get the storm cloud.

So, why do you have everyone clump up? Doesn't that mean that everyone has to move if an icicle appears? Well, yes, but here's why you do it: One person in the cluster gets a storm cloud, everyone in the cluster gets the buff immediately. No waste. Of course, this assumes a balanced raid (at least 3 melee dps, 3 ranged dps).

When your highest DPS cluster gets the cloud, you blow heroism.

Finally, position so that you're always DPSing in a moonbeam, unless an icicle falls on it. This goes for melee and ranged.

As a point of reference, any class should be able to manage 7-8k on this fight without issue. I've seen melee higher than that, and I've definitely seen mages break 12k. If you're not putting out high numbers, you're not using the buffs properly.

edit: Oh, and consider using two healers. People used to use 1 healer when the achievement was to kill him in 2 minutes, so 2 healers should be plenty. Have your 3rd healer use his dps spec.
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Re: [10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Nalyn » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:42 am

Bladeheart wrote:I told the range to stack up on a beam, except for the Sruv hunter who's assigned to keep up singed. Anyone who gets storm buff would run to the stack. Most of the attempts, the group will do around 3-3.5k dps, except for the surv hunter who'll do 6k. I first tried tanking him near the rare cache. When I kited hodir to where moonbeams are so melee would benefit as well, the DK managed to put out 6k as well.


Fires > Beams. You got the stacking up part right, just not on the right spot :) It means your healers and ranged don't have to jump around all the time, and getting/keeping the "Singed" debuff stacked, is more important than some extra haste, it also adds 3k fire damage to every offensive spell they cast by the fire. We tank him by the rare cache, and keep him there, it avoids/resolves a lot of range and movement issues.

The big thing, as others have mentioned, is that it seems ALL your dps is VERY low for the fight. Everyone should be pumping out 5 to 6k+ dps, with your top damage dealers being up around 9 to 10k for the fight.

edit: I think dps is freeing everyone at the start and every subsequent flash freeze though. Would skipping some npcs help?


At the start of the fight, free everyone, except the priest, every flash freeze thereafer, your ranged just break out the mage, and leave the rest, the mage will break the rest of them out.
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Re: [10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Spectrum » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:17 pm

Nice tips. I'm going to push our guild to work on this next clear. I really think we have the potential if we just use the buffs correctly.
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Re: [10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Bladeheart » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:36 pm

Thanks for the reps.

Odd though, majority of the strats I've read suggested to prioritize on moonbeams over fires when attempting hard mode. I'll inform my raid next attempt to prioritize the fires, and just go onto the beams if it's within range.

I'll also try out stationary then move onto a beam after flash freeze for melee. Hopefully this'll help increase their DPS.

Oh yeah, we do run with 2 healers for hodir. 4 melee's (including tank) and 4 ranged. That's why we let ranged have the storm cloud buff.

With this setup, assuming all dps reach around 6k (is it possible even for melee), would it be enough to bring Hodir down within 3 minutes?
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Re: [10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Corpsicle » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:10 pm

Our enhancement shaman and ret pally have both hit 8k dps on this fight, no reason your shouldn't. The key to Hodir hard mode is to maximize those buffs, maximize dps time on boss, pay attention to your surroundings and Do Not Die. If people end up tunnel visioning and dying to anything avoidable or spend the fight getting bounced around by Icicle drops then you will fail.

Anecdotal evidence but for my ten man any time the singed stack falls off because the mage didn't get broken out fast enough we have not beat the timer. We have beat the timer with very minimal up time on beams. If your range can't break the mage out fast enough by themselves, consider moving to the mage in its iceblock immediately after flash freeze and parking hodir on top of her. Melee can swap targets to her and then back to boss quickly with minimal running around.

Random tips:
1) /target Vee will target the mage. Stick a symbol on her of some kind to make it consistently easy to see where she is. Wipe intentionally every time the Singe debuff drops off until your team can consistently pop that mage out of iceblock fast enough to keep up the Singe debuff on Hodir.
2) When you have the Singed buff you do additional damage on each attack - another reason to park all the range on top of the fire.
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Re: [10] Hodir Hard Mode Attempts

Postby Belloc » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:12 pm

Bladeheart wrote:Thanks for the reps.

Odd though, majority of the strats I've read suggested to prioritize on moonbeams over fires when attempting hard mode. I'll inform my raid next attempt to prioritize the fires, and just go onto the beams if it's within range.

I'll also try out stationary then move onto a beam after flash freeze for melee. Hopefully this'll help increase their DPS.

Oh yeah, we do run with 2 healers for hodir. 4 melee's (including tank) and 4 ranged. That's why we let ranged have the storm cloud buff.

With this setup, assuming all dps reach around 6k (is it possible even for melee), would it be enough to bring Hodir down within 3 minutes?


I have a decent ret set, everything being offspec gear that no one else needed, and I put out 6k on Hodir when I'm not tanking. That's 6k on non-hard mode kills where I'm leading the raid and calling stuff out constantly, so I'd imagine my DPS would be higher in a balanced 10-man.
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