3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Meloree » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:27 pm

Knaughty wrote:As for people saying "Block sucks".

Umm... no it doesn't. I run an average of something like 2k block. We're working on Steelbreaker. He hits for 25k. My blocks are taking off almost 10% of damage received.

...

And this isn't just bullshit theory craft. For Wed night Steelbreaker attempts, I was tanking. P1, P2 I was healed by a single Holy paladin, no issues. Damage is smooth & consistent, Holy pally can keep me up (and do 90% of dispels) until P3.

Tonight, we switched to a DK tank (because his DPS is terribad - shit gear) and I went ret.

Two hours of wipes later, we had to give up and give him a second healer to get to P3.


The delta in the situation described is not block. I don't know what it is, but there's more going on than just "block". It's extremely risky to have a single healer on the Steelbreaker tank in P1/P2 unless that tank is a paladin, self-cleansing. I would argue that if you were letting the holy paladin cleanse you, rather than time a HL for right as fusion punch lands, you were, in fact, doing it wrong, and were very lucky to not be falling over on a regular basis. Low resist FP + Melee in P2 will kill you. If the healer is doing the cleanses for you, that can happen without heals. You lucked out, your DK didn't. It's certainly not an example of the power of block.

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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Ascendant » Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:27 am

Awyndel wrote:The EH part is quite powerfull.
But while it's a really good panic button, it is useless as a planned cooldown for let's say a plasma blast or a surge of darkness, because it only helps on one damaging attack, while a last stand or any damage reduction work multiples times over, as you get healed over and over again.


if they gave us a cooldown that was 30% damage reduction for 12 seconds, would you consider that a "planned cooldown"? If yes, then you are a fool for not seeing that we have been given something much more powerful. This version of AD is effectively last stand on any single target hit that doesn't kill you, always. It comes down the size of the hit, so yes, mimiron's plasma blast will very likely still be a problem, but surge of darkness will not be any harder.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Awyndel » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:52 am

The EH part is much like a last stand. The DG part is however not.

Yes I admit, both parts are a very powerfull tool. They are also both completely overpowed, not what i needed, and most certainly not what I wanted.

I still think surge of darkness is gonna $%#$% you up though :D . Thank god for dps minions.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:09 am

Knaughty wrote:Grats, flat 10.5% EH boost, provided by universal mitigation, which is more powerful than a health boost.


65% / 1 = 65%
35% / 0.7 = 50%

Total EH is 115%.

That's best case scenario on live (which is why we never count it as such, unreliable).

It would be worst case scenario on the ptr right after being introduced (still, since only this part would not be leapfroggable, it always counts).

With the fix to AD (only the damage below 35% being mitigated), it's exactly what happens, regardless of luck.

In addition, we require somewhat less healing when pushed below 35%, but this can only be up to 15% less, and that is when we're actually knocked down to 1%.



I'm rather happy with the fix. It was OP before, no matter how you looked at it. I was afraid it was getting a reduction on the damage reduction, which might make it worse than it was before in certain situations, such as lots of minimal damage.

If this fix makes it enough to be balanced and not nerfed further, that would make me quite happy. How are we in comparison to DK's and Bears with this EH? I haven't kept track of them lately, as both DK and Bear tanks seem to have gone extinct on my server. Warriors would probably need some loving.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Awyndel » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:48 am

They also fixed the block being used after it. Itss used before it now.

It is starting to look more balanced.

Still The dg is op, and it's a different cd then i wanted :D
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Vedge » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:36 am

Did they remove the debuff that turns off AD after spirit proc? or is it still there?
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby jere » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:54 am

debuff is still there, but it doesn't turn off the damage reduction anymore.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Zeratuel » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:18 am

I realize this is digging up an old thread, but since the patch came out I've been really excited about this talent. I was watching the log during the raid last night, and after one wipe i decided to go back and check out what argent defender did for me in the combat log. With 3 points in argent defender, and a little over 42k hp raid buffed, I went into my combat log and found:

Zeratuel's argent defender heals Zeratuel for 3707.(Critical)
Zeratuel is afflicted by argent defender.


With 3/3 in argent defender and 546 defense, I thought the combat log would have shown more healing, especially if that is considered a critical. Am I over-looking some aspect? Unfortunately this is the only one i caught, and the WWS data for the raid is missing everything healing related, but this may pertain to if this ability is considered OP or not. I'm interested to know what other tanks report.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Gamingdevil » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:59 am

Zeratuel wrote:I realize this is digging up an old thread, but since the patch came out I've been really excited about this talent. I was watching the log during the raid last night, and after one wipe i decided to go back and check out what argent defender did for me in the combat log. With 3 points in argent defender, and a little over 42k hp raid buffed, I went into my combat log and found:

Zeratuel's argent defender heals Zeratuel for 3707.(Critical)
Zeratuel is afflicted by argent defender.


With 3/3 in argent defender and 546 defense, I thought the combat log would have shown more healing, especially if that is considered a critical. Am I over-looking some aspect? Unfortunately this is the only one i caught, and the WWS data for the raid is missing everything healing related, but this may pertain to if this ability is considered OP or not. I'm interested to know what other tanks report.


There seems to be something wrong with it. Sometimes it starts healing at the value that you would be had the hit killed you (say you had 5k overkill, it heals you starting from -5k) No-one has been able to get to the bottom of this yet though.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Candiru » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:25 am

Yeah, someone needs to test standing in a mimiron rocket blast and see what happens.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby moduspwnens » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:31 am

Candiru wrote:Yeah, someone needs to test standing in a mimiron rocket blast and see what happens.


I stood in a Shock Blast for funsies last night and survived. I think it's like 80k damage after resists and mitigation.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:34 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Candiru wrote:Yeah, someone needs to test standing in a mimiron rocket blast and see what happens.


I stood in a Shock Blast for funsies last night and survived. I think it's like 80k damage after resists and mitigation.


Holy shit.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Cylan » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:17 am

The cooldown is pretty so far, I have to say...
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby moduspwnens » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:50 am

Nikachelle wrote:Holy shit.


It's nothing ridiculous, though. Divine Protection would have saved me, too.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:54 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Holy shit.


It's nothing ridiculous, though. Divine Protection would have saved me, too.


I just like the fact that we don't have to hit anything to activate this. Makes me feel... godlike.
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