Losing AoE Threat

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Losing AoE Threat

Postby uryd » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:50 am

After a long break from heroics I ran heroic HoS today with my fellow guildies. Having maintanked & offtanked Ulduar 10 & 25 for the majority of the month, I was expecting the run to be a piece of cake.

Far from that. I was constantly losing threat to the fire mage and pulls were very messy with me chasing loose mobs around while spamming Hand of Reckoning and Righteous Defense.

My pulling style is pretty standard. I open with Avengers Shield, and then proceed to the 96969 rotation. I just focus on a single target and allow HotR and Consecration to maintain aggro on the other mobs. I had no problems holding threat on my target but HotR and Consecration doesn't seem enough to outpace the mage's AoE threat on the other mobs.

I spec 53/18 which is the highest threat build. With regards to gear, there is not much disparity. We are both geared for Ulduar 25. Here is my armory. And here is the mage.

I am by no means a nub and usually have no problems holding threat. It's just mages in general that cause me problems (happened on occasion before). Pallys are supposed to be kings of AoE tanking so I am wondering what is going on.

1) Is it a case where the mage needs to hold back on AoE dps and focus on single-target?
2) Is losing aggro an accepted side-effect of AoE dps-ing that us tanks just have to watch out for and react to? (e.g. rotate SoR amongst targets; be prepared to taunt; etc.)
3) I am thinking that since HotR applies SoV stacks, would speccing for Seals of the Pure help generate better threat upfront on multiple mobs?

Any ideas would be appreaciated.
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby Racerover » Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:09 am

In my experience, Paladins are now the WORST aoe tanks out there. Given more than 4 targets at least with the HotR glyph. Our consecrate just isn't what it used to be. I'm easily overtaken by D&D or Thunderclap. Just make sure to position yourself for HotR then consecrate. Or at least have consecrate already down before mobs get to you. Between holy shield and the said spells above, you "shouldn't" be having any issues. Also make sure this mage you're running with is at max range as that plays a factor in whether he can go 10% above your threat or 30%. To answer your questions more specifically;

1) This is an option but not ideal. You could mark a kill target and focus most threat on that then after it's dead have the mage start aoe.

2) In an AoE situation in Ulduar, I'm constantly taunt spamming off of ranged dps. It's just something I've gotten used to.

3) With the current state of our judgements/seals you're better off with the 53/18 build over SotP. It's not much snap aggro as it is and the dot would have to tick anyway.

Hope this at least somewhat helps you.

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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby Arnock » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:38 pm

I'd have to disagree that pallies are the "worst" aoe tanks, the problem is that abilities liek Tclap and shockwave are great for pickup and snap aoe threat, while pallies have much more significant threat over time.

If you dont have the HotR glyph, I'd recommend getting it, helps quite a bit to have that extra add picked up.

And if you're an engineer, bombs are great for aoe mob pickup =P
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby Racerover » Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:28 pm

I stand corrected. One of the worst on initial aoe snap threat with more than 4 mobs.
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby theckhd » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:43 am

Racerover wrote:I stand corrected. One of the worst on initial aoe snap threat with more than 4 mobs.

Still wrong, we're still one of the best at snap aggro on multiple mobs, simply because we have so many abilities at our disposal to grab them. You can't expect to drop Consecrate and hold aggro like in BC, it takes a little more effort (though it does for Warriors too).

-Drop Consecration ahead of time
-Avenger's Shield the first 3
-Exorcism a fourth (until 3.2)
-HotR on the next, possibly grabbing up to 2 more or strengthening threat on 2 you already have (3 if you glyph, though I don't)
-ShoR on the next
-Judgement on anything loose
-2 taunts to pick up anything you missed

Compare this to warriors, who basically have Thunderclap and Shockwave (though they do have an aoe taunt). We can tab-target and keep splitting our abilities up, while keeping them in the consecrate, while getting aggro from Holy Shield, while spreading our SoV DoT. When done properly, it's quite powerful.
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby Jasari » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:53 am

Yeah, what Theck said. You can't just tunnel vision one mob and expect the rest to stick to you. If the DPS are AOEing, you should be actively attacking more than one target.
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby daemonym » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:20 am

Jasari wrote:Yeah, what Theck said. You can't just tunnel vision one mob and expect the rest to stick to you. If the DPS are AOEing, you should be actively attacking more than one target.


this. somethign i learned from tanking on my warriro alt is that you need to tab target when you have proper dps with you. consecrate for passive ish threat, shor skull, tab and hammer, tab and judge, and just cycle through like that.
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby uryd » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:31 am

Awesome. Spreading the love amongst the mobs seems reasonable enough. Thanks for the suggestion :)
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby Noradin » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:25 am

theckhd wrote:
Racerover wrote:I stand corrected. One of the worst on initial aoe snap threat with more than 4 mobs.

Still wrong, we're still one of the best at snap aggro on multiple mobs, simply because we have so many abilities at our disposal to grab them. You can't expect to drop Consecrate and hold aggro like in BC, it takes a little more effort (though it does for Warriors too).

-Drop Consecration ahead of time
-Avenger's Shield the first 3
-Exorcism a fourth (until 3.2)
-HotR on the next, possibly grabbing up to 2 more or strengthening threat on 2 you already have (3 if you glyph, though I don't)
-ShoR on the next
-Judgement on anything loose
-2 taunts to pick up anything you missed

Compare this to warriors, who basically have Thunderclap and Shockwave (though they do have an aoe taunt). We can tab-target and keep splitting our abilities up, while keeping them in the consecrate, while getting aggro from Holy Shield, while spreading our SoV DoT. When done properly, it's quite powerful.


When did we get extra GCDs compared to other classes?
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby Arnock » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:45 am

Noradin wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Racerover wrote:I stand corrected. One of the worst on initial aoe snap threat with more than 4 mobs.

Still wrong, we're still one of the best at snap aggro on multiple mobs, simply because we have so many abilities at our disposal to grab them. You can't expect to drop Consecrate and hold aggro like in BC, it takes a little more effort (though it does for Warriors too).

-Drop Consecration ahead of time
-Avenger's Shield the first 3
-Exorcism a fourth (until 3.2)
-HotR on the next, possibly grabbing up to 2 more or strengthening threat on 2 you already have (3 if you glyph, though I don't)
-ShoR on the next
-Judgement on anything loose
-2 taunts to pick up anything you missed

Compare this to warriors, who basically have Thunderclap and Shockwave (though they do have an aoe taunt). We can tab-target and keep splitting our abilities up, while keeping them in the consecrate, while getting aggro from Holy Shield, while spreading our SoV DoT. When done properly, it's quite powerful.


When did we get extra GCDs compared to other classes?



Don't believe he said that we had more gcds than other classes, but the amount of multi-target and ranged abilities we have is fairly large. I use methods very similer to what theck said.
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby theckhd » Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:01 pm

Noradin wrote:When did we get extra GCDs compared to other classes?

We didn't. We can just do a much better job of filling those GCDs with aoe threat abilities than any other class.
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby Minarva » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:48 pm

Indeed, abilities that we have also make us exceptional tanks for Yogg-Saron P3. No other tank has the ability to gain a remarkable threat lead on so many mobs before they reach the melee pack (where a bad timed whirlwind can cost you the immortal).
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby Rainge » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:45 am

Jasari wrote:Yeah, what Theck said. You can't just tunnel vision one mob and expect the rest to stick to you. If the DPS are AOEing, you should be actively attacking more than one target.


I like to play the "how many mobs can I keep SoV rolling on?" game. If I get a 5-stack up on everything before they start dying, I win.
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby Blackharon » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:15 pm

Rainge wrote:
Jasari wrote:Yeah, what Theck said. You can't just tunnel vision one mob and expect the rest to stick to you. If the DPS are AOEing, you should be actively attacking more than one target.


I like to play the "how many mobs can I keep SoV rolling on?" game. If I get a 5-stack up on everything before they start dying, I win.

I thought I was the only one who did that!
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Re: Losing AoE Threat

Postby Playdoh » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:27 pm

I usually try to time my concecrate more like a t-clap.

So I will avenger's shield, then run to my mobs to concecrate (treating it more like a t-clap or shockwave) instead of pre-loading it. I like this because I know the mobs will be in my concecrate on the 1st tick of it instead of chancing one of them not coming to me. Then Hotr and continue with 969 rotation, still tab-targetting, and exorcism/hor/rd the ones that don't like me yet.

But it's all nuances of tanking.
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