[Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Candiru » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:52 am

Now that CS and DS don't stack SoV, but they DO still trigger the 5-stack hit Ret paladins want to stack that debuff as fast as possible.

I was thinking that ret might want a fast 1H weapon and shield to start a fight with (with a macro to swap easily)

Fight starts:
5 1H swings @ 1.5 = 7.5s (less with haste)
T
0 CS (off CD at 4)
1.5 Shield of the Righteous (off CD at 7.5)
3.0 Consecration (off CD at 13)
4.5 CS (off CD at 8.5)
6.0 Exorcism (Art of war is bound to have procced by now!) (off CD at 21)
7.5 Shield of the Righteous (no longer used)
<macro in 2H weapon>
9.0 Judgement (5stacks!)
10.5 Crusader Strike (off CD at 14.5)
12 Divine Storm

etc

Will this lead to more damage than waiting for 3.6*5=18s without being able to use ShoR and with CS/DS hitting for less due to the lack of seal procs:?
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Selinaria » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:16 am

In regards to AM and DS, I feel that given the damage cap on DS is fixed, the best use of DS currently, massive raid damage, is largely going the way of the dodo. As it stands I feel both holy and prot will continue to take it largely for divine guardian. Ret will probably be better off going for AM for everyday usage. That being said, I think that either choice is fairly viable. I will continue to use it as a back up tank CD in my ret build since AM may be better for massive magic raid damage, it does nothing other times.

Other part of the choice is what you gain from the 5 extra wasted points, either gain some int and/or fear/disorient reduction or 5% healing done/received, nothing really earth shattering here but some people may have a preference.

And in regards to 1 hander usage to stack the dot, basically after some quick napkin math and following the latest math on the EJ ret post, it entirely depends on what 1 hander you have and what 2 hander you have. A very fast 1 handed weapon (with good stats of course) will be a good choice if you have a fairly slow 2 hander like Aesir's Edge. If you only have a 1.6 or 1.7 speed weapon paired off against a 3.4 speed 2 hander, it will not be worth it. ( and in either case, the lose/gain is fairly marginal)
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Morendin » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:44 am

I haven't mathed it out, but I'm 99% certain that the per-stack damage proc renders the 1hander switch obsolete, since it's no longer a binary 0-4 stacks=shitty damage, 5 stacks= BOOM!.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Magnusharkov » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:51 am

I have a quick question which fits under this topic title:

Has anyone worked out whether there is any point taking 2 points in improved judgement? It appears that It's not really possible to use judgement any faster than every 9 seconds due to the knock on effects of a 4 second cooldown CS.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby majiben » Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:23 am

Someone on EJ asked this exact question and the response was that judgement was indeed used after an 8.5 second delay on occasion even if it was rare. Now I can't have said to have done the work myself but I trust that assessment was correct.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Kelaan » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:47 pm

What do you think about priority of CS vs Judgement? Talented judgement has a cooldown exactly 2x CS's, and seems to be hitting for MORE than 2x (per hit) than CS, so some on EJ were suggesting that J > CS is better. However, others were saying that the extra SoV proc (full stacked) from two CS's rather than one Judgement was better.

Has anyone seen any consensus of one being better than the other?
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Fedaykin98 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:23 pm

Kelaan wrote:What do you think about priority of CS vs Judgement? Talented judgement has a cooldown exactly 2x CS's, and seems to be hitting for MORE than 2x (per hit) than CS, so some on EJ were suggesting that J > CS is better. However, others were saying that the extra SoV proc (full stacked) from two CS's rather than one Judgement was better.

Has anyone seen any consensus of one being better than the other?


This is the kind of thing that inquiring Rets want to know! I'm also very curious to hear about changes in relative stat desirability, specs, and what glyph people are going to drop in favor of SoV.

Baelor, are you planning a 3.2 FAQ? I can imagine that we may need some time before one can be put together, given the last-minute nature of the changes to Ret.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Fedaykin98 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:31 pm

Btw, if the talent trees remain the same (I assume they are), I'm thinking of going with this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZAMzZVfbtbIuhdIfsu
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Marwan » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:16 am

I'm planning on testing out two different builds ...

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVhdZVZVfbtbIuhdIfsu - 11/5/55 AM Build
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZE0zZVfbtbIuhdIfsu - 5/11/55 DS Build

I might even Dual Spec these two and swap them depending on the fight. I could see the Am being more useful on a Hodir Hard mode type fight, but I think the DS build might help more on IC Hard, with all the Nature damage.

What do you guys think?
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Proudfoot » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:57 am

Marwan wrote:I'm planning on testing out two different builds ...

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVhdZVZVfbtbIuhdIfsu - 11/5/55 AM Build
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZE0zZVfbtbIuhdIfsu - 5/11/55 DS Build

I might even Dual Spec these two and swap them depending on the fight. I could see the Am being more useful on a Hodir Hard mode type fight, but I think the DS build might help more on IC Hard, with all the Nature damage.

What do you guys think?


I think they nerfed DSac to 150% of your health even if you have DS up so it's lost a lot of usefulness.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Candiru » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:07 am

Imp.Lay on hands might be more useful tbh, gives the tank a rather powerful CD for physical damage. Or you could get both imp.LoH and AM? Have to loose vindication then though, so depends how often you raid with a DK tank I guess (since they can't demo-shout)?
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:28 am

I'm planning on testing out two different builds ...

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVhdZVZVfbtbIuhdIfsu - 11/5/55 AM Build
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZE0zZVfbtbIuhdIfsu - 5/11/55 DS Build

I might even Dual Spec these two and swap them depending on the fight. I could see the Am being more useful on a Hodir Hard mode type fight, but I think the DS build might help more on IC Hard, with all the Nature damage.

What do you guys think?


Thats basically exactly what I do already.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby kanst » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:17 am

Joanadark wrote:Remember too that the only reason Dsac is good at the moment is because it is broken. When you bubble before Dsacing the 150% hp cap on the damage siphon doesn't get enforced. This is a BUG. It is getting fixed in 3.2


Did they state somewhere that this is getting fixed, me and another pally were arguing and he didnt believe me that they were changing it.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby andx » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:45 am

kanst wrote:
Joanadark wrote:Remember too that the only reason Dsac is good at the moment is because it is broken. When you bubble before Dsacing the 150% hp cap on the damage siphon doesn't get enforced. This is a BUG. It is getting fixed in 3.2


Did they state somewhere that this is getting fixed, me and another pally were arguing and he didnt believe me that they were changing it.

Yeah they stated it somewhere i can't get on the work internet, but they are "fixing" it.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby kanst » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:29 am

According to EJ, if you have perfect latency and do it exactly right, stacking with a 1 hander is around 0.1% dmg increase. So for humans its not worth it

CS has priority over judgement, this is due to the short CD of CS, if your delay CS 1 second it is causing a much larger percentage loss in dmg then delaying judgement 1 second. Also CS can proc seals while Judgement doesnt.
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