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[25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

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[25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby Soldierxx » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:13 pm

Killed yogg in 10 man and 25 many times but i am wondering if hard mode is different for a tank. Are all the tactics the same from a tank point of view?

Also, the Crusher Tentacles are suppose to be hit by the tank to interrupt casting, but ive seen many tank deaths on them. Is there a way to avoid getting killed by the Crusher Tentacles while hitting it?
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby knaughty » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:18 pm

Pretty much, until:

• You're trying to interrupt crushers with Mimiron missing
• You're tryng to do P3 with zero keepers.
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby Soldierxx » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:31 pm

Knaughty wrote:Pretty much, until:

• You're trying to interrupt crushers with Mimiron missing
• You're tryng to do P3 with zero keepers.



What changes with the interrupting and what changes in P3 with zero keepers?
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby Belloc » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:12 pm

Soldierxx wrote:
Knaughty wrote:Pretty much, until:

• You're trying to interrupt crushers with Mimiron missing
• You're tryng to do P3 with zero keepers.



What changes with the interrupting and what changes in P3 with zero keepers?

You have to interrupt more often, is what I imagine he's saying.

In phase 3, with zero keepers, the adds don't die, so tanks have to collect them and, in 25-man, position them. In both modes, adds will be taunted away and must be taunted back by the tank at a certain point. It's all explained in a thread around here.

Hard mode for a tank isn't really any different on 10 man. You interrupt crushers, you pick up adds, you try not to let anyone die, including yourself.



As far as tanks getting killed by crushers, that will happen when crushers get a large number of buffs stacked on them. Every time they get hit, they get a damage buff. Once it hits 30, they're hitting quite hard. The buff will fall off if no one attacks the crusher for a second, but that can be annoying to coordinate. Basically, don't joust the tentacles if they have more than ... 35 stacks, I'd say. Either let the stacks fall off, or finish the tentacle off fast.
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby Seloei » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:29 am

25man - without mimiron you are tanking the crusher while the dps takes down corrupters and only have slow casting attacks (no hunters etc or fast casters) on the crusher, if he hits 10+ stacks you walk out and let it reset then go back but during the brain phase you tank it full time and if needed, shieldwall to survive so they can stun it faster downstairs.

25man - with 0 keepers, same fight as you would do without mimiron until p3 where the complexity of the fight goes up from 1 to 500. Assigned tanks, assigned beacon pullers, multiple targeted aoe / interupters etc. All in all, basicly you just pickup the adds that spawn based on the strategy you are going with.
But 25man hardest mode yogg has been only completed by the real hard core raiding guilds for now. It's supposedly getting nerfed in 3.2.
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby Treck » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:27 am

Seloei wrote:25man - without mimiron you are tanking the crusher while the dps takes down corrupters and only have slow casting attacks (no hunters etc or fast casters) on the crusher, if he hits 10+ stacks you walk out and let it reset then go back but during the brain phase you tank it full time and if needed, shieldwall to survive so they can stun it faster downstairs.


You shouldnt be tanking the Crushers.
Jump in once in a while and hit it to get rid of the channling cast he does, and you might take a hit or not, still dont interrupt it with +30 stacks.
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby Seloei » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:14 am

During the brain phase without mimiron our ranged dps who are on the crusher switch to the nearest Corrupter and only i am tanking the crusher, dodging in and out means the debuff is up for 20% of the time and you have to either take a hit, or avoid it and the swing timer is the same as the recast timer without mimirons debuff.

Essentially jumping in and out will just mean the moment you get in ranged to interupt the debuff (that has now been applied) you will be hit at the same time as he would auto-attack on the same melee hit.

If his on 30 stacks with only slow casting attackers then you are doing it wrong. We never go past 10 and that is on a bad luck streak when my auto-swing refreshes the stack. Almost always it falls off.

During the brain phase i just full time tank it, if the stack goes over 20 i use bubble wall and the next brain phase the warrior tanks it the same way.

Weaving in and out works with mimiron active because the "cast time" is 6 seconds, without him it is less than 2 seconds.
Normal mob melee swing timer is 2s

edit: We constantly get the brain stunned 40-45s left. With any less time you will get swamped by too many crushers and corrupters. too many corrupters up means melee will die when they go inside anyway even with a healer in there.
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby Markoh » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:29 am

Plus the whole silence in p3 thing.

This isn't an issue really until your looking at 1 or 2 keepers b/c by that point you have 20% life than normal. We use a d/g / aura mastery rotation for our p3 yogg 1. If you don't have some kind of cooldown during this time there is a good chance a full life one will wreck your tanks.
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby Seloei » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:44 am

or in phase3, since your tanks are not going to be tanking them near the boss you have the tank healers stand out of the range of the aoe silence shout which is in a radius around yoggs middle. I believe the distance was just out of ranged of healing the melee or right near it if you have 40 yard spells so the silence is only a problem for caster dps.
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby fafhrd » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:13 pm

Could someone tell me what this "tanking the crushers" is in aid of? they don't move, why would you need to tank them, unless you want melee to dps them (in which case, why do you want melee to dps them?)?

I suppose if all other mobs are dead already and portals aren't incoming you might as well have melee help on them, and having someone tanking them might help in that case, but if your dps is that good you are ahead of the timers and don't need melee to help anyway, right (and you're obviously stacking the crusher's buff very high while doing it)?
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby Belloc » Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:12 pm

fafhrd wrote:Could someone tell me what this "tanking the crushers" is in aid of? they don't move, why would you need to tank them, unless you want melee to dps them (in which case, why do you want melee to dps them?)?

I suppose if all other mobs are dead already and portals aren't incoming you might as well have melee help on them, and having someone tanking them might help in that case, but if your dps is that good you are ahead of the timers and don't need melee to help anyway, right (and you're obviously stacking the crusher's buff very high while doing it)?


If you don't have someone attacking a crusher with a melee attack, it channels a cast that reduces the damage of the entire raid by 20%. This stacks 4 times, so every crusher will add another stack, if untanked.

And, naturally, the crushers hit hard enough that you don't want melee dps to be the one taking the hits. Even when tanked, melee cannot be in melee range, as he hits with a large AOE attack.
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby fafhrd » Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:30 pm

Ahh, so "tanking" means "interrupting diminish power".

I'm fairly sure we just zerg DPS through the diminish power without tanks going out of their way to interrupt it, since as long as we're not letting more than 1 crusher be alive at a time -20% doesn't put us behind. Only done yogg+1 10 and yogg+3 25 though, so I imagine that doesn't work as well on yogg+1 25.

I guess this would explain why we're never near the speed kill achievement either, hmm.
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby Threatco » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:01 pm

The crushers channel a spell the reduces the damage of your entire raid I think. By landing a melee white damage swing you interupt this, and he will take 6 seconds to put it back up (or 2 seconds without mimiron). To make good time in the brain room you need to stop them from channeling this.

(This is what I have gathered, I have not done harmdode yet)

I notice in 4 keepers up it's not an issue. You can let them channel and you still do more then enough damage.
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby Seloei » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:16 pm

"tanking the crushers" without mimiron is a bit different than "interupting the crushers" with mimiron. On a normal kill or some other form or +3 when you keep mimiron, you just run in, interupt the cast run out. The moment the cast is at 0.5s you run back in and interupt again. Essentialy weaving in and out to not get hit. With mimiron out of the picture the crushers swing timer is almost the same as his cast timer.

Without him you have to stay in melee range to get hit almost all the time and the moment you run out he starts casting and it will finish before his melee swing timer is reset. With a "stable" income of damage just a single holy paladin can keep you up and it would take 3-4 hits for you to die. That is, if the dps is being smart enough not to stack the debuff up high.

Oh, if theres a corrupter near the crusher on a normal kill you can just hammer that and it will interupt the crushers cast. 6s cd and 6s recast timer -> almost no debuff uptime
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Re: [25] Is yogg hard mode different for a tank?

Postby fafhrd » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:35 pm

Hm. Since you mention it, last week's yogg 25 was without mimiron: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/vA6t ... 15&e=11689

Outgoing damage for the crushers looks like it was mostly on an unfortunate priest, some pets, then the 2 tanks, then some more pets, so I'm guessing the 2 tanks did duck in to interrupt a bit, but not much - only 12% uptime on diminish power according to WoL, however that seems like it was 12% over the entirety of the fight, not just while crushers were alive and caster (see the graphs for uptime: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/vA6t ... 15&e=11689 ). No one got more than 1 stack of the debuff though, hence we didn't fall behind dps.

Sounds like we're still making it unnecessarily hard on DPS though, gonna see if we can get some more continuous interrupts going next week. Or maybe I'm just misreading the log.

DPS is definitely don't doing anything along the lines of "being smart to not stack the debuff up too high", since I'm DPS and have never been told to do anything other than kill the crusher as quickly as possible.
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