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Hodir hard Mode

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Hodir hard Mode

Postby Dantriges » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:57 pm

So after a period of losses to RL, vacations etc we tried on Hodir hard mode and got a few issues.

Tanked the boss in the left corner near the chest. I later moved to a starbeam.

Issues we got.

1. My healing officer complained about the mas dispell. Not everyone is in range. Shadow Priests lose dps time and healer loses heal time. So is there a benefit in trying to group all in dispell range in one cast or deal with it?

2. Should I stop moving to a starbeam farther away? Is there a benefit later on in staying there? I got the feeling that later on the buffs are all grouped nicely together in the ranged camps, so I could move there and the NPCs won´t stray too far away. And melee dps and myself get more buffs in the process. So should I just say screw the buffs I leech the mages (stormcloud for me seems wasted then). I am currently tanking with SoB. would sanctity of battle be better for the fight than crusade for the increased crit?

3. Seems we got a hard time with freeing the NPCs. Seems that the job got done when the rogues opened them on their own accord as I later found out. So whom do you use to open the flash freezes. Ranged argue that they lose a lot of time with their casts while melee have instant attacks. The melees are not to fond of the prospect that they run around while ranged doesn´t have to move.
How many do you free?. We open mages and shamans at pull, and mage free the rest, ater on I am thinking about just to open the mage. We treid with all ranged to open the ice blocks but seems that the job doesn´t get done properly.

4. We got a debate about the priority of buffs Starbeam yields more damage of course but some ranged argue that interrupting casts because of jumping results in mor lost dps time than using starbeam. So it´s more about stand near the fire or into the light if you can choose only one.
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Re: Hodir hard Mode

Postby amh » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:10 am

1 - Dispels.
We typically end up in three and a half groups. Melee, ranged, healers, hunters (1-2, their sole purpose is to keep Singed up). All groups are mass dispellable (although it obviously takes one dispel for each group). As for who´s on bitch-duty, you have to see what your problems are.

Is healing a challenge? Tell the shadowpriests to suck it up, dispel and do more dps.

Is making the timer an issue? Let the disco-priest handle it, and tell the shadowpriests to do more dps.

Is both an issue? Tell the shadowpriests to suck it up, dispel and do more dps :/ Mass dispel should be <gcd as long as they are in a beam.

(Everyone should be in range, by the way. That´s the very idea behind tanking by the rare cache. You circle the raid in nice and close, and you force the npcs to gather up around him, so that the various buffs aren´t spread all over the place)

2 - Starbeams
Do you move to beams to increase your own threat, or to buff the melee? We´ve never had much success in moving him, because it scatters the buffs and removes a bit of control over the fight.

4 - Buffs and debuffs
If you have any, use hunters to keep Singed up. They gain little/nothing from Starbeams anyway, so they´re expendable. Your casters should not be jumping, it takes way too long over the course of the fight. Cast -> sidestep -> cast -> sidestep -> loot
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Re: Hodir hard Mode

Postby Magnilda » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:06 am

Dantriges wrote:I am currently tanking with SoB. would sanctity of battle be better for the fight than crusade for the increased crit?


I just tank this normally, threat is not an issue as long as your dps have some L2P and know when it's safe for you taunt back and when they need to drop threat.

Dantriges wrote:3. Seems we got a hard time with freeing the NPCs. Seems that the job got done when the rogues opened them on their own accord as I later found out. So whom do you use to open the flash freezes. Ranged argue that they lose a lot of time with their casts while melee have instant attacks. The melees are not to fond of the prospect that they run around while ranged doesn´t have to move.
How many do you free?. We open mages and shamans at pull, and mage free the rest, ater on I am thinking about just to open the mage. We treid with all ranged to open the ice blocks but seems that the job doesn´t get done properly.


In my opinion it's best to have one or two melee assigned to freeing the NPC's. Waste of time letting casters do it as they are the main DPS in this fight thanks to the Singed buff. We have two groups of two melee who each have a mage and shaman that they are responsible for breaking out.

At the start of the fight we free everything except the Priests. We have people assigned to each NPC so they are all free'd up nice and quick.


P.S We haven't actually killed Hodir Hard yet. Too many idiots who still get caught in Icicles and Flash Freezes.
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Re: Hodir hard Mode

Postby Seloei » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:55 am

3, Start the fight at the hardmode chest and have everyone else break the npcs free. Once there are more than 2 lights move to the second one and hope noone overagros you. Burst out max threat while waiting for it to happen but save wings until Singed is applied to atleast 10.

Starting there will force the npcs to "clump up" and when they get thrown away they will be together so theres less time looking for it and easier to tab target or even use aoe attacks if theres a lot together. After the fight progress keep moving near the starbeams as usual to help the melee and hope to god that everyone will learn not to get hit by the icicles if they want to survive.

Ask the ret / holy paladins to blow Divine Sacrifice + bubble during frozen blows to help. It takes off a TON of damage on the hardmode kill and you will get a max of 3 frozen blows if you want to beat the timer.

Also, check out the other topics on hardmode hodir, their even on the first page theres a lot more useful stuff there.
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Re: Hodir hard Mode

Postby Dantriges » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:34 am

Yeah I ´ve read them. they were very helpful in keeping threat. But haven´t found an answer if it´s useful to leave the position after a certain time, to get buffs myself. Ofc someone proposed to move to a starbeam but wasn´t sure only if convenient and close to the original position.

And the other stuff of course.
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Re: Hodir hard Mode

Postby kanst » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:18 am

10 or 25? Gonna assume 25, for this we do 4 groups. Melee, Ranged Left and Ranged right, healers. The left and right groups all move to whatever fire is closest to them and stack singed, they only get the light beam when its close to them. We dont really mass dispell at all. If its bad we can call for it but we put it on the players to keep themselves not rooted. Almost everyone has a way to get themselves out, and healers can snipe dispels if needed. Our tank doesnt move unless an icicle is gonna fall on his head. If healers get the crit buff it gets run to ranged. Thats the basics, once you have the basics down its just having dps not die to stupid shit. There are really only 2 hard parts to this fight.

1) Avoiding stuff
2) Knowing when to call the wipe (this one I find wayyyyy harder), there is nothing more demoralizing then killing him 2-3 seconds after he destroys the cache
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Re: Hodir hard Mode

Postby pedal2000 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:56 am

So for ten man, what's most important? Fire, or light circles?

And what exactly are you dispelling in 25 man? Is it in 10 man? Other than the ice lock (to the ground) I don't see anything. I just cleanse this off people as I tank.
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Re: Hodir hard Mode

Postby kanst » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:06 am

pedal2000 wrote:So for ten man, what's most important? Fire, or light circles?

And what exactly are you dispelling in 25 man? Is it in 10 man? Other than the ice lock (to the ground) I don't see anything. I just cleanse this off people as I tank.


Well singed has to be stacked, it cant fall off and it needs to be stacked as fast as possible. As such mages are the most important to break out by a mile. We have the ranged all switch to mages and break them out each time, then the mages break out the other 2 mobs. If your losing singed stacks your not gonna kill it.

Also in 10 man casters are awesome, they rape in damage. Our best kill had 1 melee other then the tank
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Re: Hodir hard Mode

Postby fafhrd » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:25 pm

Dantriges wrote:3. Seems we got a hard time with freeing the NPCs. Seems that the job got done when the rogues opened them on their own accord as I later found out. So whom do you use to open the flash freezes. Ranged argue that they lose a lot of time with their casts while melee have instant attacks. The melees are not to fond of the prospect that they run around while ranged doesn´t have to move.
How many do you free?. We open mages and shamans at pull, and mage free the rest, ater on I am thinking about just to open the mage. We treid with all ranged to open the ice blocks but seems that the job doesn´t get done properly.

4. We got a debate about the priority of buffs Starbeam yields more damage of course but some ranged argue that interrupting casts because of jumping results in mor lost dps time than using starbeam. So it´s more about stand near the fire or into the light if you can choose only one.


Your ranged are just being lazy. The only mobs that need to be freed are the mages, and having your ranged lose half a cast to their target dying is less of a raiddps loss than having your melee run potentially across the room and back freeing mages (which delays the mages dropping fires, and delays the mages freeing the other NPCs, which delays all the buffs being present). With stormpower on a couple of your ranged they can free the mages usually without moving a step within seconds of flash freeze ending.

Yes, this means your mages and warlocks might be at only 18k dps on recount instead of 20k, that doesn't mean it's not better for raid DPS. Leave melee on the boss, ideally in a starlight. The goal is to get a fast kill, not to stroke individual DPS epeens. If melee dps were leagues behind caster DPS there could be an argument for setting up things to be perfect for casters, but they're not. Our mages top out at 19-20k dps (with the warlocks/elemental shamans only around 16k), while our rogues/hunters top out at 15k when given the same buff-uptime.

amh wrote:2 - Starbeams
Do you move to beams to increase your own threat, or to buff the melee? We´ve never had much success in moving him, because it scatters the buffs and removes a bit of control over the fight.

4 - Buffs and debuffs
If you have any, use hunters to keep Singed up. They gain little/nothing from Starbeams anyway, so they´re expendable. Your casters should not be jumping, it takes way too long over the course of the fight. Cast -> sidestep -> cast -> sidestep -> loot



If you're not actively trying to keep melee in starlights, I can see making melee do stupid things like break out adds, because melee DPS is kinda meh without starlight. You really should be trying to move him to starlights though - the only positional buffs are starlights and toasty fires - melee for the most part don't benefit from the latter, ranged can go stand near them whereever they spawn. Both melee and ranged benefit from starlights, but melee need the boss near starlights to do so, casters can again go stand in them. The range on fires is large enough to usually include lights.

I'm not sure what you mean about using hunters to keep singed up. Yes, they should absolutely be doing that since they're very good at it, however the casters all want to stand in range of fires too, because not moving at all is still a large dps gain over sidestepping constantly (and less raid healing needed too), AND they proc singed from their spell casts (~3k damage per proc iirc) and help stack the debuff. I have no idea where you get that a 50% haste buff is "little/nothing" to hunters, you're very wrong. It's less desirable to hunters than stormpower and toasty fire, but still a huge DPS buff once you have the other two (without toasty fire at the least it's wasted since if you're not timing movements very carefully you're wasting the benefit of haste).
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Re: Hodir hard Mode

Postby amh » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:27 pm

You're right, little/nothing is an understatement. Look at my post this way:

Hunters lose less dps from neglecting beams (by standing at the fire) than casters, and are therefor very suitable for the role of keeping Singed up.

(If buff-positioning allows casters to stand in beams and still be affected by fire, all the better, but beams are by far priority as long as someone is keeping Singed up)
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Re: Hodir hard Mode

Postby Treck » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:47 pm

You can keep the Debuff up as the tank cant you? The fires helps increase threat by some atleast.
And it feels it does more than standing in moonlights, meeleattacks doesnt do that much to threat anyway.
SoV or JoV critted for 11k today on Hodir (not sure what, MSBT just showed the SoV symbol), is there any benefit with SoR more than speeded meeleattacks?
I prefer SoV atleast, but is it a bad choise for a special fight like this?
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