Weapon Expertise or not?

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Weapon Expertise or not?

Postby eia » Wed May 30, 2007 12:51 am

The topic is as made for troll-posts, I know "zomg, how can you even consider it" etc., but after having read some long posts on the EJ forums I'm not so sure.
I always considered it to be the worst talent in all our 3 trees, but some people on EJ and a blue post (that I unfortunately can't find right now) seem to think otherwise.
WE supposedly reduces the chance for your opponent to dodge, parry, block and be missed, so in reality increasing the number of hits you actually get through.
Compared to Precision, one guy at the EJ forums claim that 3 points in WE instead would be: "In exchange for +3% hit, you gain +1.2% hit, -1.2% to be dodged, and -3.6% to be parried for total of +6% effective hit."

Has anyone done any fiddling with this?
Been thinking of respeccing to try it out (since I mis-clicked when I last respecced, I should respec anyway :evil: ) but I think I need to actually respec to a "proper" spec first, then collect some data and then respec to test it...

Thoughts?
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Postby Lev » Wed May 30, 2007 1:13 am

Is there any addon wich will analyze the log and display some kind of usable numbers? Would be nice since battle log is running too fast in fight for checking it out by myself :roll:
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Postby Strom » Wed May 30, 2007 7:05 am

Unfortunately Physical hits are the least of our worries TBH. I will not be picking it up anytime soon.
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Postby Lore » Wed May 30, 2007 7:08 am

At this point I'm fairly positive that WE does in fact do everything that's been theorycrafted and tested to a fair degree. Additional weapon skill used to do all that in addition to the glancing blow mitigation before the nerf, it just sounded like they took that out from how the glancing blow change was worded. The numbers I've seen from recent testing, however, make it seem very likely that WE is still reducing dodge, parry, and miss as well, however. This does make it a fair bit better than precision, and I'll be working it into my build as soon as I'm back up and running.
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Postby lethario » Wed May 30, 2007 7:44 am

I put 2 points in it in my latest respec - I've noticed a difference - fewer miss/dodge/parry, more clean hits.
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Postby eia » Wed May 30, 2007 7:59 am

Strom wrote:Unfortunately Physical hits are the least of our worries TBH. I will not be picking it up anytime soon.


As Alixander so aptly has in his sig:

"White damage is the side effect of me swinging my weapon to make my seal proc."

(Reduced number of parries also to a small degree reduce the incoming damage, so it's not all just white hits either)
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Postby DurWrathi » Wed May 30, 2007 9:00 am

Assuming we have satisfied the first question of power, we now face the second question of compared investment. Even if WE is an effective +6% hit, we still need to ask if its worth 5 points. Lets look at where 5 points might come from.

Improved Devotion
5 points = an effective +1-2% physical mitigation

Percision + Guardian
3 points = +3% to hit
2 points = 3 minute CD on BOP and 20 second BOF duration

Reckoning
5 points = an effective +X% threat, assuming a Y% uptime
(+7.3% threat at 25% uptime, http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... .php?t=599)

1H spec
5 points = +5% damage

Those are the four flexiable 5 point investments I can think of off the top of my head. I may have missed others, feel free to suggest alternatives or corrections.

So is +6% to hit more signifigant than any of those? I'd be interested in seeing a comparison between threat levels. How much raw threat does somethign like 1H spec generate compared to an additional 6% to hit?
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Postby Kathryn » Wed May 30, 2007 10:02 am

Dur, the question is more:

Is 3 points better in Precision, or 3/5 WE?

In wich case WE for 3 points yields a bit more than 3% to hit agaisnt lvl 73.
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Postby Strom » Wed May 30, 2007 10:54 am

Kathryn wrote:Dur, the question is more:

Is 3 points better in Precision, or 3/5 WE?

In wich case WE for 3 points yields a bit more than 3% to hit agaisnt lvl 73.


My point is I would rather get something else than the +hit increases from either Precision OR WE. I am not too worried about the threat loss from melee misses, even if it does mean my seal will not hit either.

I am also not too worried about the increase in damage it will cause from speeding up a mobs attack by 40% due to a parry.

In a nut shell, the threat bonus and damage reduction due to less parries is not worth the talent investment IMO. Maybe if they deflate the protc tree some in the future.
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Postby Lore » Wed May 30, 2007 10:58 am

Man, wouldn't it be great if they merged WE and 1h spec?
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Postby Strom » Wed May 30, 2007 12:41 pm

Lore wrote:Man, wouldn't it be great if they merged WE and 1h spec?


Blizz is not know for logical behavior :P
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Re: Weapon Expertise or not?

Postby Dorven » Wed May 30, 2007 2:37 pm

eia wrote:Compared to Precision, one guy at the EJ forums claim that 3 points in WE instead would be: "In exchange for +3% hit, you gain +1.2% hit, -1.2% to be dodged, and -3.6% to be parried for total of +6% effective hit."


Um, I think he has his decimal point in the wrong place. According to wowwiki, each point of weapon skill gives -0.04% to your chance to miss, be blocked, be parried, or be dodged, and gives you 0.1% crit chance. See here for details.

So 3/5 WE give -0.24% to each of these - AKA it removes 0.72% pure mitigation, removes 0.24% chance to be blocked, and give 0.6% crit chance.

Now, since a melee crit does 2x white damage, but only 1x seal damage, and has no additional chance to proc a seal, it's less useful than miss mitigation. Similarly, block reduction is less useful than miss reduction in some circumstances.

Consider an example scenario: half your paladin's damage comes from "white" damage, your opponent has enough BV to block your strikes completely, and you have the base 5% chances to miss, be blocked, be parried, be dodged, and to crit. Then untalented:

If W is your weapon damage on a normal successful swing
Then a crit doubles just the white half of that, so it does 1.5 * W
Untalened DPS
= (1 - 0.05 [miss] - 0.05 [block] - 0.05 [dodge] - 0.05 [parry] - 0.05 [crit]) * W + 0.05 [ crit] * 1.5 * W
= 0.825W
DPS with 3/3 precision
= (1 - 0.02 [miss] - 0.05 [block] - 0.05 [dodge] - 0.05 [parry] - 0.05 [crit]) * W + 0.05 [ crit] * 1.5 * W
= 0.855W
DPS with 3/5 weapon expertise
= (1 - 0.0476 [miss] - 0.0476 [block] - 0.0476 [dodge] - 0.0476 [parry] - 0.056 [crit]) * W + 0.056 [ crit] * 1.5 * W
= 0.8376W

So damage with 3/3 Precision is 0.855 / 0.825 = 103.64% of untalented damage.
And damage with 3/5 WE is 101.52% of untalented damage.

So 3/3 Precision is more than twice as effective as 3/5 Weapon Expertise
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Re: Weapon Expertise or not?

Postby kurros » Wed May 30, 2007 2:44 pm

eia wrote:Thoughts?


If true, than the human +mace/sword skill racials wouldn't be totally worthless.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Lore » Wed May 30, 2007 3:02 pm

Wowwiki's information is inconsistent with what testing has shown recently after a EU CM posted some different numbers. It's something more like -0.2 miss, -0.1 dodge, -0.6 parry, +0.2 crit, with no effect on block.
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed May 30, 2007 3:17 pm

Lore wrote:Wowwiki's information is inconsistent with what testing has shown recently after a EU CM posted some different numbers. It's something more like -0.2 miss, -0.1 dodge, -0.6 parry, +0.2 crit, with no effect on block.


Ok here's the key difference that should resolve this confusion. The info the EU CM gave, with the stats about 0.2 miss, 0.6 parry, etc, apply to Level 70 characters attacking above Level 70 targets. The information on WoWWiki with the 0.04 numbers applies to players or NPCs Level 70 or below attacking players or NPCs Level 70 or below.

ok?
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