[Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Jedah » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:01 am

Fighting a target dummy as a warrior will not give you an accurate account of your rotation or raid buffed DPS, simply because of the way rage generation reacts to raid buffs. I agree that when whacking a target dummy in your current gear, you may be having rage issues, and therefore, slam would seem to be the right choice over MS or execute in some situations where rage is low.

Once you get a reasonable level of gear (naxx10+) and standard 25 man raid buffs, you will quickly find yourself with more than enough rage to prioritize your best DPS abilities as I stated previously.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Bundy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:43 am

Well I DPS'd H DTK with my "inferior spec" 55/8/8, and someone had recount. Im in mostly Heroic Blues, and a few Heroic Epix, with 2 pieces of pvp gear even.

3150 AP( with my own BS) , 24% crit, 7.5% hit, mace spec.

I pulled a little over 3k DPS on single target bosses, and more on AoE stuff.

Moral of the story: 55/8/8 is just fine. :P
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Epimer » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:12 am

Bundy wrote:Moral of the story: 55/8/8 is just fine. :P


...except you have no idea what DPS you could have done if you were a more standard build, which is the whole point.

EDIT: used the phrase "a more standard build" instead of numbers
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Bundy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:18 am

No thats correct. Ive read on here what a warrior in my gear level is expected to put out. And at the very least I met that. Considering its my Off Spec and I rearely do it..........

if you were a more standard build


And cmon....Standard? That couldnt be anymore boring. Whos here playing a game to be bored? Show of hands please.

If I can be creative and still do good dps, thats win/win to me.

If youd like, I can switch to your precious "standard spec" and see what kinda dps I put out. But what would that prove? We all know if I came back and posted lower numbers none of you would admit to anything. And it goes the same for me too. So theres really no point is there, it would only satisfy my own ego or whatever, in which I dont care to do anyways.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Epimer » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:38 am

Bundy wrote:If I can be creative and still do good dps, thats win/win to me.


Which is fine, but communities such is this exist to aid players in optimising their performance. If you're more interested in keeping yourself amused through the use of less than optimal specs rather than, y'know, playing well, then I don't understand the point of posting on theorycrafting sites.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby fafhrd » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:48 am

Let bad thread die imo, just going in circles.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Bundy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:58 pm

If you're more interested in keeping yourself amused through the use of less than optimal specs rather than, y'know, playing well, then I don't understand the point of posting on theorycrafting sites.


It would seem that you refuse to acknowledge that anyone can be good unless they choose the path of the cookie cutter.

A simple yes or no - Would pulling 3k dps wearing mostly blues and a few epics be considered "Playing well" ?

Any theory is debatable because its not fact, its only theory. If all these things were facts, you would only need one site to post these facts and there would not need to be discussions on them. Seriously...how fun is that? They wouldnt even need to have individual talent points. Just three different specs for each class, no further options needed.


Let bad thread die imo, just going in circles.


Well I agree with going in circles part.

raiding: dos and do nots
by daemonym » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:43 am

---------------------------------------------------

Generic dps benchmarks by gear level:

Only gear from heroics and craftables: 2k to 2.5k dps

Mix of 10m, heroic, boe craftables, EoH epics: 3k to 3.5k dps

Mix of 10/25m drops: 3.5k to 4.5k dps

Full 25m gear: 4.8k to 5k dps (no exceptions)

Best in slot tier 7.5 or tier 8: 5.5k to 6k dps (no exceptions)


The bolded/underlined portion is the category I am in. So im pulling more than expected.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Epimer » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:03 am

Last attempt at reasoning, and then I'm bowing out.

Bundy wrote:It would seem that you refuse to acknowledge that anyone can be good unless they choose the path of the cookie cutter.

A simple yes or no - Would pulling 3k dps wearing mostly blues and a few epics be considered "Playing well" ?


It's not that I don't think someone cannot play well without choosing a cookie-cutter spec; it's that such specs are cookie-cutter for a reason. Namely, that they've been mathematically demonstrated to be optimal for their given purpose (usually single target dps, because nobody cares about trash meters). Anyone can be "good" with whatever spec they so choose, it's just that they would most likely be better if they simply listened to the people who theorycrafted their way to the cookie-cutter spec in the first place.

Once again: your 3k dps could have been 3.2 or 3.5k (pulling numbers out of thin air to illustrate the point) if you were specced differently. That is the point. Not that you are not doing "fine" or "ok" or "well" - that it could potentially be better.

As for whether that number is fine for your gear level - all generic dps targets should be taken with a huge pinch of salt. They don't take into account whether or not you have group synergy, relevant buffs etc which can cause things to vary wildly.

But we can just agree to disagree on whether or not theorycrafting is relevant to the numbers you put out (a bold stance to take on a theorycrafting forum!) and go our separate ways, because "going around in circles" is the one thing I think we can both agree on.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Bundy » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:28 am

Last attempt at reasoning, and then I'm bowing out.


Prespective, its different for eveyone. Im attempting to reason with you too in case you didnt notice.

I know what your point is. That no matter how much DPS I pull, it can always be better with your "Proven" best spec.

The thing is, I truely do not believe you can narrow it down just like that. The game is based on numbers yes, but RANDOM numbers. The game doesnt take into account what the previous roll was. So when you say its possible to be doing more DPS with a diffrent spec, I can say the same for my spec. You can run tests as much as you want, it does not make it a fact. There are dozens upon dozens of factors that come into play and some of which arent even testable.

Im fine with all of it though, you beleive what you want to beleive, and I beleive what I want to beleive. It is what it is.

But like I said before, even if I out DPSd and warrior several times in a row, in same gear as me who had your spec , you still wouldnt admit that my chosen spec is viable. It seems like your stuck in the mindset that your way is the one and only.

Once I get home (im in Iraq with stupid labtop) and get on my actual computer and can use addons and what not. I will get recount and try my spec against yours and see what the numbers look like. I know every situation is different and its not gonna be completly accurate. But if there within 200 DPS of each other on avg, im assuming either one could come out on top in any given encounter due to luck with crits and what not.

Which brings me back to my first point on this, either spec could come out on top due to the luck invlolved. Essentially making either one a viable option.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Jedah » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:34 am

I don't know why I let Bundy get me so angry. I really don't care, it's just the principle that he is on a theorycrafting forum - which is intended to maximize your ability, and then argues that he is fine just being mediocre. I simply don't get it, and I am not going to feed the trolls anymore. I'm done with this thread: good luck ever doing hard modes, Bundy, you'll need it.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Tharivol » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:39 am

Take a gander at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics before so vehemently arguing that you can't factor in random numbers. ;)
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Bundy » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:38 am

I took statitics in college already, k thx.

I didnt say you cant factor in random numbers. I said the numbers are random and theres nothing to stop them from rolling to either etreme more often than they should.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Elsie » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:47 am

The funny thing is, the game is not based on random numbers over time.

One time on a trash pack I did the top dps with pvp ret, that doesn't make not taking Righteous Vengeance good. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

The thing is, I truely do not believe you can narrow it down just like that. The game is based on numbers yes, but RANDOM numbers. The game doesnt take into account what the previous roll was. So when you say its possible to be doing more DPS with a diffrent spec, I can say the same for my spec. You can run tests as much as you want, it does not make it a fact. There are dozens upon dozens of factors that come into play and some of which arent even testable.

This directly conflicts with your statement of having taken and presumably understanding statistics. Perhaps they did not cover stochastic processes and whatnot.

The thing is, you're not trying to reason here bundy. You're trying to claim personal, anecdotal evidence proves you right. That doesn't work. You need to use mathematical data to prove you're right.
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:04 am

At the end of the day, if you're in this game to have fun and play for fun, then great, do what you want and pick whatever build you want. If you excel at it, all the better.

However, if you're in this game to make a character be the best it can be (which is most people on this board), use a spec that has the math to prove it's the most successful spec. Having a spec that does typically 200 less dps than the "cookie cutter" or "optimal" spec, while acceptable for having fun, is not acceptable if you're hardcore into raiding.

You have fun if you want to, but don't expect people to take you seriously if you're going against the generally accepted (typically mathematically proven) method of doing things. Unless you have your own math to prove it. (And Recount postings from target dummy practice don't count.)
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Re: [Warrior] Levelling a new Warrior

Postby Punkss2 » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:33 pm

Dead horse is dead
Thinking of starting WOW again....
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