53/18... still worth it?

[Worldie]

The problem is that the likelihood of such event to happen (a hit where a heal landed one second before was 5% short of keeping you up) are fairly slim.

This is absolutely true. On the other hand the chance that 1% more avoidance saves you (not that you avoid, but that you avoid a blow that would have otherwise killed you) is also fairly slim, but I'd never think of taking less than 5/5 anticipation/deflection.

That's not actually true considering how avoidance scales.

Remind that if you got 50% avoidance and you add 1% dodge, you reduce the incoming damage by 2%.

[hoho]

He wasn't talking about avoidance scaling, he just said that extra little bit of avoidance doesn't decrease chance of dying a whole lot but people still try to get it as much as possible.

[Morningrise]

I'm not a theory craft wizard, but I see Divinity as the talent to take for my Holy offspec as filler on the way to get Divine Sac. For Prot, I just don't see it as something worthwhile that increases A) my damage reduction / mitigation / avoidance or B) my DPS / Threat. Healing is my healer's job.

[Barsine]

Divinity increases the healing on you, before or after the damage is taken. Unless you got really bad healers those 5% won't help at all.

Unless you're claiming that your healers somehow never need to move out of fire then I think you should re-read my justification for the quote you selectively replied to.

I did actually read that, but - you'll have to excuse me for saying this - that argument is just bullshit. The heals your are talking about are Holy Shock (paladin), Swiftmend (druid), Power Word:Shield or Prayer of Mending (priest) and Riptide. I'm not sure about how much a Riptide heals for, but I can tell you that the other ones won't critheal for more than 7-8k, and more often than not in that situation not crit at all. With Divinity that would change to 7.3-8.4k. If those 400 hp would've saved your life, then too bad, it's not worth 5 talent points to gain that "survivability".

[Neara]

On a second note, being overhealed is (Usually) more useful than OMG overthreating targets....so divinity could be viewed as more viable than crusade... And PoJ is just frickin win

OMG overthreating + Glyph of Salv = an added timer = getting the damn DKs raidspot .. or something like this

[Jonesy]

Divinity increases the healing on you, before or after the damage is taken. Unless you got really bad healers those 5% won't help at all.

Unless you're claiming that your healers somehow never need to move out of fire then I think you should re-read my justification for the quote you selectively replied to.

The heals your are talking about are Holy Shock (paladin), Swiftmend (druid), Power Word:Shield or Prayer of Mending (priest) and Riptide. I'm not sure about how much a Riptide heals for, but I can tell you that the other ones won't critheal for more than 7-8k, and more often than not in that situation not crit at all. With Divinity that would change to 7.3-8.4k.

For Paladins it's DF + HS + instant FoL, for shamans riptide + hasted LHW. I don't know the equivalent for priests and druids, maybe someone can fill that in for me? You can't really compare a 2s cast with an instant, it's more about instant on-the-move and then a short-heal when you stop. This is how healers *actually* heal. It's quite appropriate to expect healers to use shorter cooldowns on these as you wouldn't expect to have to move out of fire buring burst more than once every couple of minutes (and both paladins and shamans have stronger abilities on longer cooldowns to use if it does happen).

So it work out as about 8k non-crit, an extra 600 or so life. 50 stam equivalent minimum, which makes it (at worst) 20% as effective as Combat Expertise and Sacred Duty (bear in mind these are conservative figures - it can't be worse than that unless I have my maths wrong but it can be better because of crits, procs I've forgotten, healer skill in knowing they can HW instead of LHW because the riptide crit, etc.)

Is 20% of a must-have tanking talent "must-have"? Definitely not, this is a sorites argument and we should avoid it. Nonetheless I don't think that it's worthless, especially when the alternative *isn't* better survivability talents - it's dps talents which give no extra useful threat.

[Ryyu]

As a rule I ignore advice from anyone who isn't or hasent got a tank on the subject of tanking. Since one healer once told me to spec into Divine int...

[knaughty]

Jonesy - are you doing no fights where you're pushed on threat?

It's an issue for me in several Ulduar hard modes.

The Only fight that feels worthwhile for Divinity is Vezaxx-25-hard, where I'm getting a lot of reactive healing and Penance ticks. Of course... I'm also pressed for threat, so I'm in a weird & stupid build that excludes JotJ, DS/DG and PoJ. Oh, and Vezaxx[25] hard requires bloody 2/2 SA as well.

First respec in months. Bring on 3.2 so I can get out of Ulduar

May end up speccing prot/prot

[Lorvinion]

This talent to me personally feels like a filler for optimizing a Healadin. Obviously there are times that exist where this talent can save you, but as many have said putting 5 points into this talent just doesn't seem worthwhile, when it could be thrown into talenting for higher threat output. This is my honest opinion on the subject.

1.) It's personal preference, the talent doesn't make or break you.
2.) There are obvious advantages to this talent (possibly preventing a wipe)
3.) Obvious disadvantages, sacrificing the chance to optimize your threat.
4.) Ask yourself this question. Are you seriously putting "FIVE" talent points
into a slot that picks up a healer's slack?

[Jonesy]

Jonesy - are you doing no fights where you're pushed on threat?

Yeah, I'm really not, which I'm beginning to realise isn't everyone's experience. Our summer recess has limited the chance to do 25-man hardmodes, but we've completed all 10-man hardmodes apart from Firefighter and 1L. We tend to stack casters or melee for the 10-mans, so that shouldn't affect the results - we have a very liberal raiding alts policy so it's usually possible to get either total caster buff coverage or total melee buff coverage.

As a benchmark, we've killed Hodir in less than 2 minutes and usually do it in around 2:15. WWS has our mages at 16k DPS, so it's not a question of our DPS being bad (and some of our DPS players are generally acknowledged to be among the best on the realm).

One thing I would say is probably different to how most raids work is that I'm really conscious about DPS getting threat reduction buffs (salv, intervent and PS) where it's appropriate. From talking to friends in other guilds Salv use is patchy, and DPS warrior intervenes/disc priest pain suppression on DPS are nonexistant. I think that helps a lot, I don't pretend to be a threat monster or anything.

My current build is definitely Vezax-oriented, and I suspect if Vezax didn't exist I wouldn't pick up Divinity (I like doing loldps as a tank just as much as everyone else). I think that it's the case, though, that Vezax emphasises how good Divinity is rather than it being the only place where it's even slightly useful.

[Wardari]

Really you should have 2/2 in "Thunderjudge" effect for the 20% attack speed reduction, I'd sub out to 1/2 points in Spiritual attunement to get it.

I used to play a Warrior tank pre-wotlk and all the other tanks cried about not now having thunderclap available, now all other tanks have it in their talents but i'm seeing a large number of builds with it being overlooked which is a big mistake imo - remember that 20% slower blow might be the time needed for that heal to land and prevent the killing blow.

With the talents for 100% divine plea uptime, which it should be as you should also be using glyph of divine plea you won't have many mana issues at current content. The only one I struggle with now is Vezax as I tend to rely on taking some big blows during the enrage requiring bigger heals, which tops off my mana long enough till the next enrage. However as my avoidance scales up and up i'm having more and more problems with a string of avoideded hits during the enrage - great for survivability but really bad for threat.

Other than that your build looks fine.