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Greetings, and piles of questions!

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Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby Tieren » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:01 pm

Greetings!

I have never posted here before, nor have I tanked as of yet. I have a Draenei Paladin in the works, but they're only 44 so far. I am reading whatever I can in hopes of learning to tank well quickly, as I can either never find a tank, or the ones I can find seem to have rather poor notions of how tanking works (e.g. 71/0/0 blood specced DKs who refuse to even turn frost presence on, then wonder why they keep dying or cannot hold threat).

I have a couple questions by this point and while I have searched on the subjects before considering posting (quite a bit, actually), my skills at greping and groking forums appears to be lacking.
  • Holy Shield: Lets say I manage to block 8 times in less than 10 seconds. Does the +30% block remain independent of any remaining charges? I have yet to be able to test this without being murdered in the process.
  • Please pick apart any issues or offer any advice on this build. It is unlikely I will be 80 and geared by the time 3.2 comes out, after which SoV and Vindication seem more useful, so it was constructed with that in mind along with the 3.1 guide. I am guildless so I will likely be pugging or community raiding most of the time. In which case it seems prudent to grab a second point in spiritual attunement rather than hoping that the healer I am with will consistently give me free mana. Same reasoning behind glyphing with the Wise instead of Sense Undead.
  • Now that I'm actually posting questions, I can't remember the rest of them. Awesome. -_-

Since I can't remember the rest of my questions, Hi! Love the forums here so far. :mrgreen:
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby Karnadas » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:07 pm

If the charges run out, you lose the 30% block

If you have the glyph of divine plea, your mana should be fine, go back to sense undead.

And welcome to the community!
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby PsiVen » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:35 pm

Welcome to the forums, Tieren. I'm going to redirect your thread to the Basic Training section where I believe you will find most of the answers to those questions you forgot :) The Talent Spec forum should also be of some use.

My main advice to you is to never, ever underestimate movement and positioning as a tank. Pursuit of Justice is one of the most important talents available.
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby Tieren » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:38 pm

Thank you for redirecting the post. I probably should have guessed that.

I have always placed 2 points in Ghost Wolf to make it easier to move on demand for my Shaman. Pursuit of Justice, or rather the lack thereof, is the only thing at this point that I personally dislike about the build I posted (granted, that's having never used about half the abilities, so that may very well change). The problem is largely that I am ignorant of what I feel I could sacrifice for a tactical advantage.

Of the two directives for a tank, stay alive supplants hold aggro as the former is a precondition for the latter. Assuming that Vindication turns out to be worthwhile for mitigation in 3.2, I would think for PoJ I should drop SotP down to 9%.

Probably all stuff I'll figure out when I have a chance to actually use the abilities first hand. :?
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby Braundo » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:48 pm

Tieren wrote:Thank you for redirecting the post. I probably should have guessed that.

I have always placed 2 points in Ghost Wolf to make it easier to move on demand for my Shaman. Pursuit of Justice, or rather the lack thereof, is the only thing at this point that I personally dislike about the build I posted (granted, that's having never used about half the abilities, so that may very well change). The problem is largely that I am ignorant of what I feel I could sacrifice for a tactical advantage.

Of the two directives for a tank, stay alive supplants hold aggro as the former is a precondition for the latter. Assuming that Vindication turns out to be worthwhile for mitigation in 3.2, I would think for PoJ I should drop SotP down to 9%.

Probably all stuff I'll figure out when I have a chance to actually use the abilities first hand. :?

If you're going far enough into Ret to get both Vindication and PoJ, it might be more effective to get 3/3 Crusade rather than trying to worry about SotP. The current math seems to indicate that a Crusade build in 3.2 will give you roughly equivalent threat to a typical SotP build on most mob types, and a little more on types Crusade has the bonus for.
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby Chasey » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:33 am

Not to be hyper-critical of the build you posted but you asked, so here is my advice/opinion:
I'd rather drop a point or 2 into divinity than in divine sacrifice and divine guardian, things at the Ulduar lvl hit to hard to take the extra damage. I'd rather take the extra heals. I don't know how serious you wanna get tanking or how far you wanna get while raiding but extra heals are nice, extra damage isn't always.
I'm not to fond of seals of the pure, you can get great aggro w/crusade or conviction.
If you ever by any chance take pursuit of justice and drop it you will have a "what was I thinking moment" and you will then forever wonder why don't I have it. Try it you'll like it :!:
Its your build and just doing a few daillies you can play around w/builds, experiement and find what fits you. Just keep the key survival/mitigation things in the build and the rest is preferance.

Welcome to maintankadin its a great place, you will find some awesome advice and get some great insight to tanking w/a pally.
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby badgermonkey » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:13 am

I'd rather drop a point or 2 into divinity than in divine sacrifice and divine guardian, things at the Ulduar lvl hit to hard to take the extra damage. I'd rather take the extra heals. I don't know how serious you wanna get tanking or how far you wanna get while raiding but extra heals are nice, extra damage isn't always.


This is one of the few disputed arguments left I think ;) Sacred Shield ought to be up 100%, so with improved you only drop out of your rotation once per minute instead of twice. It also makes Sacred Shield more effective, and gives you some good utility in Divine Sacrifice (I drop to offtank on a lot of fights that DS would be useful for precisely that reason).

You are already being incredibly overhealed in Ulduar. I tried both with and without and checked the parses, 3/5 in Divinity gave me an additional 2% overhealing. 33% effectivenesss is not what I'd call that great.
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby mandm413 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:06 am

I pretty much only run northrend heroics/raids in pugs so I know where you are coming from on your point of 2/2 in SA I will tell you that mana will not be your concern with an undergeared healer it will be your health. Right now as a protection paladin with divine protection talented (which you should have) it refreshes on every hit so it is up the entire fight giving you 25% base mana return plus what you get with SA so you should be fine with the one point in SA. The only time you will lack for mana is when you and your group completely outgear the content and the extra point in SA will not help you with that. For solo/dailies etc where you don't have a healer I just run with seal of wisdom up and between that and dp I never have to stop and drink.

Also be sure to start the argent tournament as soon as you hit level 77 so you can pick up your tanking axe at 80 and make sure you hit nexus as your first northrend instance as all 3 quest give tanking rewards. Then at 74 make your way to zul'drak for the ragemains flipper quest for your tanking weapon and starting at 70 a blacksmith can provide all the rest of the gear you will need to be tanking and to start heroics in.

Welcome to the forums and to the tankadin community.
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby PsiVen » Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:22 pm

In patch 3.2, which I gather is when you will be concerned with level 80 talents, sacred shield won't stack from multiple paladins so you probably won't get in the habit of putting it on yourself in raids. So those points in Divine Guardian will be somewhat less attractive.

Divine Sacrifice is useful though. There are plenty of situations in Ulduar where it's handy to bubble and soak 30% of the raid damage for 10 seconds, and only a few of them are obstructed by actively tanking something.

My philosophy is to spec for survival and utility, gear for survival, and leave the threat generation to my own abilities, augmented with some gear swaps when necessary. The only threat talents I pick up are the most powerful ones I can reach with those goals. Divinity is fairly weak, but it's still a survival talent, so in 3.2 I'll be going 3/5 Divinity and 2/2 Vindication (because then it will be demo shout).
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby JU1CYFRU1T » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:34 pm

You also have too many points in Improved Judgements. You only need 1 point to complete your 969 rotation... the other point is wasted there.

I, personally, don't have SotP, I put those 5 points into Divinity. Adding 5% to my heals (in progression) is huge, and when I am in a pinch (dead healer)... it's a 10% bonus. I much prefer to get the 2 points in Pursuit of Justice and drop vindication... but that is because I leveled to 80 as a Retadin... and can't live without it.
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby Tieren » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:31 pm

This forum is awesome.

I got my first point of redoubt last night, which is really fun. It also both reminded me of and answered my previously forgotten question about Redoubt (mainly just how it works, as I was misreading block value as block chance).

This is how I understand Sacred Shield working: {I cast SS on myself} -> {I get punched in the face, 0 mitigated.} -> {SS Procs a mini-bubble.} -> {I get punched in the face again, up to 500 blocked}. Is that correct?

I'm sold on Pursuit of Justice. I was focusing too much on other things, I think, and not thinking about tactical movement. The current build I am looking at after the discussions in here so far has changed to this. I want to slap Crusade for being a tier-4 ret ability; it and my current stubborness about Vindication are taking away my 2/2 SA, though it sounds like I'll probably be ok without it.

@PsiVen: You are correct. While I am trying to level fairly quickly, I'm levelling mostly solo in prot spec to learn the abilities, so the going is slow. Do holy specced Paladins tend to walk prot far enough for Divine Guardian to have better Sacred Shield? In reference to:
...sacred shield won't stack from multiple paladins so you probably won't get in the habit of putting it on yourself in raids.

I agree completely on speccing for utility and survivability. Moving the two points of Divine Guardian would be nicer if they could go somewhere I want but cannot have points. Some divinity or Imp. HoJ could be nice though. Never hurts to have a spare interrupt on standby, even if it doesn't work against everything you'd want it for. On the other hand, being able to Sacred Shield myself at double strength is fairly utility on its own.

@JU1CYFRU1T: While it's true that I only need 1 point of Imp. Judgements for the 969 rotation, I need to burn a point somewhere to hit Ret. Tier 3 (for lovely and fun things like PoJ, Vindication and walking to Crusade). 1/2 Improved Blessing of Might seems as though it would be completely useless for me; I really only use BoK or BoSanc. I could put the point into a 2% Benediction, which would be nice. As a counter argument, I've seen other Shamen use an unglyphed Thunderstorm at the beginning of a fight and send things in all directions (some invariably land next to a healer) and I've seen mobs continually respawn in the final stretch of H CoS behind us. Of 2% cheaper instants, 12% stronger Imp. BoM and slightly faster Judgement GCD, I think the GCD reduction is probably the strongest.

@mandm413 :mrgreen: I am swayed by your arguments for 1/2 Spiritual Attunement. When I first started looking at Guarded by the Light and Divine Plea (pretty sure that's the combination you're talking about for talents) I almost drooled.Without having access to it yet I was not sure if it would be enough on its own, however. Thank you for the gear and quest advice as well! I had no idea whatsoever on where to start gearing up.

@Chasey I can see your point about the damage and bonus healing, though the improved SS could be nice. I would argue that Divine Sacrifice, with Divine Guardian or without, should really only be used either immediately after bubbling yourself to negate the damage. Using it without a bubble up seems like suicide, which really wouldn't help most of the time, but I could see it being very useful as a panic button or to even just make some fights easier for the rest of the raid.

@All Tyvm for the info! If my responses were tldr then just know that I appreciated all the responses and so far I've gotten some very useful advice.:mrgreen:
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby Koatanga » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:29 pm

I take DS/DG because I do a bit of off-tank work, and reducing raid damage for everyone is a nice thing. The obvious example is on XT. Pop your bubble and you soak up 30% of Tantrum on everyone in the raid.

I also take 2/2 imp judgement, for the same reasons you came up with - everything being equally useless, I'd prefer to have that judgement quicker if I ever need it.

I take 2/2 Spiritual Attunement only for General. If you're not tanking him, you won't need it. I swapped from Agility to Armsman on my gloves to make up the threat loss.

As far as leveling goes, just pull everything in the zone, consecrate and hammer it all down, then sort out what mobs you needed to kill for your quest. Some quests are faster, some are slower. Some you will save a ton of time - no looking for groups for any elites, for example.

Run instances at every opportunity. It will improve your tanking responses and get you better gear, so you can pull more mobs when solo. More mobs = less downtime.
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby PsiVen » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:11 am

Do holy specced Paladins tend to walk prot far enough for Divine Guardian to have better Sacred Shield?


No, most holy paladins go Ret for the crit. But that doesn't matter -- Sacred Shield is far more powerful in healing gear, and they're going to be casting it on you anyway.
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby Edrix » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:53 pm

Actually, the 51/20/0 build is very common for progression pally healers now. As healer dont want agro, it is a great tool to mitigate raid damage with bubble and Divine Sacrifice. In Ulduar there are a couple places where this is especially good (e.g. XT tantrum and pulling Auriya or whatever her name is). Also it is a really good holy crap button for pally heals.

In fact, I would say that in progression there are probably more 51/20/0 than 51/0/20 now.

As for wether to use the talents for it or not, it really depends on your raid make up. I have tanked lots where I am the only pally in th group (good to have the talents then). In my main raid progression, there are two pally healers so we actually have 2 talented SS's already (wasted points). I think it is improtant to take things into consideration when you have the whole raid make up settled. If you are gonna pug it mostly, then I would recommend as many holy crap buttons as possible and as much damage mitigation as possible.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Greetings, and piles of questions!

Postby Earantur » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:01 pm

Edrix wrote:Actually, the 51/20/0 build is very common for progression pally healers now. As healer dont want agro, it is a great tool to mitigate raid damage with bubble and Divine Sacrifice. In Ulduar there are a couple places where this is especially good (e.g. XT tantrum and pulling Auriya or whatever her name is). Also it is a really good holy crap button for pally heals.

In fact, I would say that in progression there are probably more 51/20/0 than 51/0/20 now.

As for wether to use the talents for it or not, it really depends on your raid make up. I have tanked lots where I am the only pally in th group (good to have the talents then). In my main raid progression, there are two pally healers so we actually have 2 talented SS's already (wasted points). I think it is improtant to take things into consideration when you have the whole raid make up settled. If you are gonna pug it mostly, then I would recommend as many holy crap buttons as possible and as much damage mitigation as possible.

Just my 2 cents.

The damage reduction from Imp RF is great too, and having Imp Devo Aura + AM gives a slight armour boost, as well as being useful for 10mans / 5mans.
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