Righteous Fury threat generation bugged - confirmed

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Righteous Fury threat generation bugged - confirmed

Postby Katamai » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:15 am

Last few weeks i noticed my threat has been going down very fast and i just can't figure out what's going on.

In my MT gear i have 350 SD, in trash gear 428 and it can go up to 568 in my SD gear all unbuffed.

However, no matter what spell rotation i do, i can't seem to be able to push more than 500-600 tps on average and judgment spikes aren't helping much.

It all culminated last night on a heroic Mech/Bot marathon where i was almost constantly struggling to keep aggro to hunter/spriest/priest alts and a main mage. The thing is these were my guildmates who ran these instances with me a ton of times on their much better geared mains and they know me and what i can do so they were as surprised as i was.

Basically with AS-JoR-SoR-JoCr-SoR-JoR rotation with HS R6 and Consecration R3 i was barely pushing 500-650 tps. Situation was slightly better with R6 consecration but i was constantly running OOM even though i wasn't in full avoidance gear (i was either in full SD (568) or trash tanking gear (428) (unbuffed stats) gear).

I'm AoE tanking the weapons on our Kael tries and last few tries i've been losing aggro even with AW and spamming max rank consecration and HS. I even lost aggro to a prot warrior on trash even though i opened the pull with AS, had JoCr on the mob and was judging Righteousness every 8 sec :S

Anyone has any ideas what might be the problem? Last night i got the T4 chest for the sole purpose of getting a bit more SD and threat but as the Mech/Bot run proved - nothing has changed! What's funny is that i seemed to be pushing more tps with Panzer chest stacked with 12 sta gems and 6 stats enchant than with T4 chest with 5 SD/ 6 stam gems/6 stats 'chant.

Same spell rotation, same ranks - weird difference.

SoV was giving me slightly higher tps (around 650 tps average) but while stacking it, even with R6 Consecration and R6 HS, i was barely pushing 300 tps with 3 stacks.

Any tips, comments, suggestions? I've been tanking for a long time so i (think) i know what i'm doing but these last few weeks have been tough for this very reason.

What's worse, i really have no idea what's going on or how to fix it.

EDIT: tps was monitored using the latest version of omen and everyone in the party had it.

EDIT 2: Nickki and i performed some tests and have found there's a threat % difference between different RF casts, depending on your mana.

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... 3494#53494
Last edited by Katamai on Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Minn » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:56 am

You may want to look at how much reactive threat you're generating. Make sure BoSanc is up if you're worried about aggro, the extra holy dmg on blocks is helpful. Another way to increase your reactive threat is by shifting your gear towards block rating instead of avoidance. Take a look and see if you're well over the 102.4% value for uncrushability: block gets pushed off first, taking your threat with it. Finally, try to let your dps know that if things aren't hitting you, you're generating less threat. Most folks have come to understand rage starvation (ie, warrior has a tough time if casters pull aggro early) and there's a similar mechanic for paladin tanks.

It won't be up for every pull if you're going really fast, but Avenging Wrath should be an easy fix to half your pulls. Alternating that and a spell dmg trinket would be one way to start strong on every pull. Upranking Consecration is hard on mana, but it is one of your only ways for increasing threat. If your dps insists on riding you on the threat meter, let them wait while you drink up after every pull. If you're not getting any mana back from Spiritual Attunement, it is time to use less CC or pull more.
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Postby Katamai » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:35 am

I'm well beyond crushing immunity and the only reason i can think of my my dodge rating which goes well beyond 25% with block rating being bottom last (which is what i planned to be honest).

The thing is, i really don't think i should have these issues with 428 SD unbuffed (i think it goes bit over 500 raid buffed).

I didn't have them before, my gear didn't change much, yet it's dropping like flies and even my "core" heroic farming group of friends is noticing it and they sure aren't trying to outtps me.

A feral druid friend of mine was kicking 900 tps on trash before Kael while i was doing barely 500... his gear isn't much better then mine yet difference was immense. They only way i get close to 800-1000 tps is on aoe tanking which isn't always the best solution for 25 man raids :/
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Postby Lansky » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:22 am

It is not uncommon to use gear with less avoidance on trash. In heroics and most trash pulls you don't need to be uncrushable, nor do you really need good avoidance either once you massively out gear the content. Stack block rating/value, use a spell damage trinket, cape, neck and so on. Your healer(s) will have to work a little harder but your threat should skyrocket and you can pull much faster once your dps can go all out once again. Druids have it easier because they generate so much of their rage at the later stages of gear from just beating the hell out of their target.
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Postby Extermi » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:43 am

The values you state seem normal for me when your equipment ids on the save side of the encounter. As already said, too much avoidance means you run out of mana quickly, and downranked spells mean less aggro.

For a quick run, I typically switch in PvP items with STA and SD until the mana of the healer is lower than mine after the pull, using max range spells. If you swap in enough STA, its no risk. That way, you drink with the healer and no-one will notice ;-) You can have incredible fun and generate more than enough thread that way.

Alternatively, you can of course use BoSanc as suggested already, and choff mana pots. Asking for time to build aggro (like pre-2.3 warriors need to do) of course also helps, but feels odd for a Paladin. Yet, this would allow you to judge crusader, adding another nice boost to mid-term thread.

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Postby Comma » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:43 am

No offence, but are you sure you had Righteous Fury on? Cos everytime I have serious aggro problem, I figure that the buff is gone. :x

And if there's more than one paly, make sure he's not buffing everyone Salv including you.

Other than that, yup, try less dodge, more block rating, BoSanc.
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Postby Katamai » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:55 am

Comma wrote:No offence, but are you sure you had Righteous Fury on? Cos everytime I have serious aggro problem, I figure that the buff is gone. :x

And if there's more than one paly, make sure he's not buffing everyone Salv including you.

Other than that, yup, try less dodge, more block rating, BoSanc.


It's been happening over last few weeks and yes, i even thought it was bugged so i cancelled it and re-casted... same result.

What boggles is me that i seem to be pushing less threat in T4 (with the 4 set bonus) that has more SD/less avoidance than i do in my tanking gear that has much less SD >.<
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Postby kalbear » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:20 pm

How often are you missing? Either on spells or on normal swings? Hit/spellhit can make a huge difference in threat.
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Postby Nerra » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:21 pm

you might want to reinstall Omen... and make sure everyone in your group has the most current version. I seriously doubt you're having an actual threat problem (unless your friends are really pulling aggro from you... as in you loose the mob and have to RD it back)

also, if someone set the master target in KTM and never cleared it... that "could" mess with Omen. Either way, I'd reinstall omen before worrying about game mechanics.
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Postby Demiblade » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:43 pm

This is not a joke, I really did this and it worked for me.

Do a heroic mech quick 3 badge run with bare fist, without any weapon equipped. Make sure you have at least 340+ unarmed to refresh the judgements and hit with seals.

Stack the best you can in terms of threat in every other slot (5/5 T4 and a threat trinket/ring if needed be, get +SD food buff). Hell, I'd even recommend to oil your fist but that just isn't possible.

Make sure you're squeezing out the very best you can in terms of skill rotations. Judge crusader for opening and follow up with avenging wrath and a round of max rank consecrete. Micromanage your holy shield, judge/reseal, exorcism, consecretion, hammer of wrath, to full output as far as humanly possible under GCD. Ninja throw an AS mid-fight between boss swings if you're good with reflexes, particularly those phases when he takes major extra dmg. Chuck mana pots if needed.

Tell your friends you are doing an experiment with no weapon so your threat will be severely gimped. That'll kinda teach them to L2use-threat-reduction-abilities at the same time.

Now, do the same run the next day with an oiled spell dmg weapon with +40 SD enchant. Easily 200 SD and +50 physical TPS extra just from that slot. All your threat problems will be gone. Tried and tested.
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Postby Dreamcrusher » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:45 am

TBH, I think the problem is that you are dodging too much and not blocking enough.


Holy Shield generates the lion's share of my threat, iirc. I usually get 6-700 threat PER block when HS is up, which is most assuredly one of our best ways to get threat.


When I run normal 5 mans, I put on full spelldmg gear. It's something like 450 defense and 10k hp unbuffed, with almost 600 spelldmg. As long as the healer can keep up (hasn't really been a problem unless the healer really sucks) then I have no threat issues at all.

In heroics, I put on 200-400 spelldmg while maintaining 490 def, at least 12-13k hp and use the same rotation that I always do. I never really have threat issues (barring specific cases)


I think the main difference is that I run with ~30-35% dodge/parry and usually ~20-30% block. HS really does make THAT big of a difference.

(Obviously for bosses, stacking block at the expense of dodge is not always good)
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Postby Agravaine » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:54 am

Do you run with Rogues? rogues are so happy to be able to stun things in instances, that they tend to stun the crap out of everything -- even melee mobs that are honestly no real danger to you.

If that's what's happening, you'll loose 50-75% of your HS blocks and your threat will suffer.
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Postby Afraithe » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:36 am

Agravaine is right on the spot, stuns can quite quickly screw up a pull, I try not to bring any rogues to heroics if I don't have to, and if I do, I tell them to stun the mob after he is at 50%.
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Postby Girard » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:31 pm

Afraithe wrote:Agravaine is right on the spot, stuns can quite quickly screw up a pull, I try not to bring any rogues to heroics if I don't have to, and if I do, I tell them to stun the mob after he is at 50%.


QFT.

Our raid leader actually told our rogues and our DPS warrior "not to open with stuns" if I was tanking: my threat is reflective. I don't get hits, I don't make threat.... and they get aggro and splatted.
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Spriest ftw

Postby Hixx-LaughingSkull » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:55 pm

Do you normally run with a shadowpriest? Misery helps our spell damage thus threat immensly.
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