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[10] Algalon

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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:10 am

amh wrote:
7/21/09
Curse of Weakness no longer stacks with Demoralizing Shout or Demoralizing Roar.
The following Ulduar bosses have had their melee damage slightly reduced in both normal and heroic versions: Algalon, Thorim, General Vezax, and Steelbreaker.

My assumption is that while normally these things are hotfixed, this was probably applied during maintenance since that was just earlier today.

I didn't notice them hitting any softer. Well, can't speak for Algalon or General, but I did Thorim and Steelbreaker on both 10 and 25. On 25 as third tank, he still Fusion Punch'd me to 5% of my health. I guess that's not melee damage, though. Our DK tank did manage to somehow stay alive through Thorim (hard) with 14+ stacks after both OTs (myself and a Warrior) died to chained 60k lightning.
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:19 am

Steelbreaker 25's melee damage was extremely noticably lower. Fusion Punches were the same, but single melee swings were a good 5k lower than last week. Thorim felt more forgiving too, practically as if 2 stacks of his buff had been removed compared to before.
Can't speak for Algalon yet, but I'll give an update once we kill him for the week.

LOL @ hotfix of the stacking bug a week after it was noticed that Ensidia had both debuffs up on Algalon in their world first kill video, explaining why their tanks were taking a solid couple of thousand less damage per swing than anyone else's tanks. If it was any other guild...

To be fair, I don't think that either utilizing the stacking bug, nor this hotfix, particularly changes the difficulty of the Algalon encounter. The vast majority of the fight is the correct star killing timing. Only like 20 guilds in the US have killed Algalon in 25 until now, and I dont expect to suddenly see 20 more suddenly get kills over the next week like happened with the Firefighter nerfs.
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Falibard » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:07 am

Splug wrote:The first big bang is 90 seconds in. Blow IBF in the first 30 seconds and it'll be back up in time. This is also the reason for burning the avoidance trinkets to extend the second bone shield instead of the first one: you need to blow IBF before reaching the thirty second mark, whether bone shield has been consumed or not.

The whole raid gets their threat reset when they leave for big bang. When they come back out, you'll already have more threat than they generate in a 90 second period by definition (assuming you taunt algalon after he starts his cast but before your offtank gets into a portal). Anything beyond that is excess, so going into full defensive mode with death strike is only sacrificing your strike damage. Death strike heals for 5% per disease, increased by 50% with improved death strike. Having 50% more diseases creates the same effect; the only loss on that front is the 6% max health from Vot3W. You're going to suffer far more from losing WotN, to be honest - and given the fast-attack nature of the encounter, even that gets downplayed a lot.

Don't underestimate how much magic damage flies around during the encounter either. Magic suppression may not be amazing, but it does end up being somewhat useful. The throughput change is not going to be backbreaking like it was in Vezax either way; this encounter is almost entirely gated by the timer, and just requires everyone learning the mechanics and reacting. The tank damage is high, but once the healers get accustomed to it utility makes a much larger difference than minor tank spec tweaks.

-Splug


I'm not super concerned about the loss of Vot3W (I'm sitting at like 40.5k unbuffed currently). I'm curious how your tank rotation looks if you're tanking first and eating the Big Bangs. What we're currently doing:

Jhandiun - 0:00-0:45, first 3 phase punches
Faligard - 0:45-1:30, phase punches + Big Bang
Jhanduin picks up right after Big Bang and we repeat.

So are you doing... dk (3 punches) -> other tank (2 punches) -> dk (BB + punches)?

We have been Bloodlusting a few seconds after the pull to maximize the raid dps (getting the person who's collapsing stars dps as well) and Jhand's lolthreat has been nice for that. We're certainly open to suggestions but I think our biggest fault right now is not having a consistent group for the fight. :(
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Splug » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:23 am

Pretty much. I pull, right before the second cosmic smash our druid taunts off me, and then I go round up constellations for a while. When big bang starts casting, I taunt back and stand in the center, the druid leaves. The phase punches drop during the big bang cast, and I've already got Algalon on me (with IBF up) as everyone gets out of the portal.

Really, the tanking's fairly simple for the fight. The harder parts are controling the raid damage, and dealing with the hour despawn.

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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Falibard » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:59 pm

Splug wrote:Pretty much. I pull, right before the second cosmic smash our druid taunts off me, and then I go round up constellations for a while. When big bang starts casting, I taunt back and stand in the center, the druid leaves. The phase punches drop during the big bang cast, and I've already got Algalon on me (with IBF up) as everyone gets out of the portal.

Really, the tanking's fairly simple for the fight. The harder parts are controling the raid damage, and dealing with the hour despawn.

-Splug


The hour despawn is probably the hardest part for our group. It seems to take a good 30 minutes to acclimate to the fight (mostly due to new people/different comps) before we make any progression. What you're saying makes total sense though, with my 1 min cd on IBF it makes more sense for me to go first to maximize tank cooldown uptime.

We basically have the same gear, how's the Unholy threat? I noticed in your Unholy spec you picked up some ghoul talents, is that for more Death Pacts?
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Treck » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:47 pm

Joanadark wrote:LOL @ hotfix of the stacking bug a week after it was noticed that Ensidia had both debuffs up on Algalon in their world first kill video, explaining why their tanks were taking a solid couple of thousand less damage per swing than anyone else's tanks. If it was any other guild...

So is considered a bit of exploiting with using both CoW and Demoshout?
We have been doing this all since Ulduar came, everything but Algalon in 10man that is (no clever locks xD)
First kill on vezax it was sick for, First kill Steelbreaker 25man, thorim HM aswell, and ofc Vezax firstkill on heroic.
Others didnt do this? or was it demo and demo stacking?
If its doing as much as everyone else is saying, we should notice rather easy tankhealing on algalon now.
For us this "nerf" is gonna make 10man easier, but 25man will still be just the same.
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:51 pm

I wouldnt say tank healing is gonna be "easy". You're still going to have to spam the tank without pause 24-7 with your highest output spell.

Edit: According to our healers, CoW/Demo stacking would have allowed a significantly increased amount of healer movement. Additionally, a great many of our wipes were due to tank insta-gibs that only overkilled by a couple thousand damage. CoW/demo stacking would have prevented the vast majority of our tank death wipes.

OH WELL DOESNT MATTER NOW
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Last edited by Joanadark on Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:44 pm

Joanadark wrote:Steelbreaker 25's melee damage was extremely noticably lower. Fusion Punches were the same, but single melee swings were a good 5k lower than last week. Thorim felt more forgiving too, practically as if 2 stacks of his buff had been removed compared to before.
Can't speak for Algalon yet, but I'll give an update once we kill him for the week.

LOL @ hotfix of the stacking bug a week after it was noticed that Ensidia had both debuffs up on Algalon in their world first kill video, explaining why their tanks were taking a solid couple of thousand less damage per swing than anyone else's tanks. If it was any other guild...

To be fair, I don't think that either utilizing the stacking bug, nor this hotfix, particularly changes the difficulty of the Algalon encounter. The vast majority of the fight is the correct star killing timing. Only like 20 guilds in the US have killed Algalon in 25 until now, and I dont expect to suddenly see 20 more suddenly get kills over the next week like happened with the Firefighter nerfs.


Ok, so, my prediction was wrong. Literally a single day after the hotfix 9 guilds in the U.S. alone defeated the fight for the first time.
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Worldie » Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:53 pm

I'm a bit surprised, i mean, it's not like the melee damage of Algalon was the hard part of the fight.

UNLESS the nerf is so heavy that one healer can take care of the tanks and 2 healers can raidheal.


Any data on how heavy the melee damage nerf is?
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:57 pm

Mainhand hits are a solid 5k lower than last week. wow. massive rediculous nerf.
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby fafhrd » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:14 pm

Even on 10 man? That's... rather convenient actually.
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:30 pm

yeah, approximate 20% damage nerf. WOW. We had a DPS warrior tank it with a shield on and he lasted a full transition no problem.

5k less on mainhands from from 25-man version. 25-man hits as hard as 10-man now. havn't done 10-man yet. I'll get back to you.
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:45 pm

Same damage nerf applies to 10-man too.
To quote some numbers, Main hand hits went from 18k, to 12k.
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Treck » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:07 am

So the nerf is more than just putting a permanent Demoshout on the bosses? Or have others just not used them both at the same time?
Im wondering if we will notice much differance in 25mans, where we always had them both.
We will obviously notice some differance in 10man tho since we havnt had CoW there anyway.
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Re: [10] Algalon

Postby Joanadark » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:12 am

The damage reduction we say is far more than would be caused by merely stacking the debuffs.

In other news, we're up to 14 guilds defeating it in the past 2 days.
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