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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:52 pm

fafhrd wrote:If you keep your mod simpler and more focussed (imo as soon as you start trying for UI more complicated than some text messages and a timer bar or two things start losing focus quickly) it should be a fair bit easier to get your whole raid using it than using RDX (although the latter isn't particularly hard either, we just told people "run this or don't come").


That's what I'm hoping to do. I don't feel I have any reason to offer anything more to the UI than what boss mods already do (occasionally multiple health bars, timer bars, etc.) and hopefully the arrow feature. I also am considering including code to tag a rule as one designed to "replace" something done by DBM or BigWigs (and code to not do those while DBM or BigWigs is running) so that users could migrate slowly rather than potentially ruining a raid night due to issues or something and dropping it completely.
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:13 pm

Since I am more of a code guy than a layout guy, I find the hardest part of making addons work well is the whole UI part. I'd be happy to help with the whole combat log filtration and communication part if you get someone else to write the UI. And from your references to Outlook it seems to me you want a whole bunch of UI.
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby fafhrd » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:17 am

tjh ui is fine, use that >.>
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:26 am

Sabindeus wrote:Since I am more of a code guy than a layout guy, I find the hardest part of making addons work well is the whole UI part. I'd be happy to help with the whole combat log filtration and communication part if you get someone else to write the UI. And from your references to Outlook it seems to me you want a whole bunch of UI.

I'm sure I'll be bugging people like you, Chloe, and fafhrd throughout this whole process, but I am pretty much the same way. I expect to have an in-game GUI-less command line interface with an out-of-game PHP interface on my website before I actually have something in-game that I like, simply for design purposes. I know how to do the GUI I want in PHP, so I figure it'll be simpler to do it that way and transpose rather than figure out addon GUIs and exactly what I want it to look like at the same time.

I think the hardest part of the GUI will be the rule viewer, though. That's probably the worst part about TJH... that the only way to view what rules you're using is by printing all of them in the same order you put them in. I'd like to have something more reasonable, but I'm not sure what. At least I have a model for the rule adding interface.

fafhrd wrote:tjh ui is fine, use that >.>


I'm looking for something that does a little more and is a little more user friendly than that. The gap between Joe Six-Pack who says, "I want an emote that says I drink a Red Bull when I pop Wings!" and that actually happening is a little too steep, imo. You really have to know how the combat log works to get that done.

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Here's a picture of the TJH UI from Curse's site. There are no clear explanations what a "rule" or "event" is. The user would have to actually click that dropdown and read those, and assume that they're intuitive (most simple ones are, but many aren't). Assuming the user has figured out what an "event" is, source and target should be self-explanatory. Well, somewhat. As listed on the TJH sticky, if I HoJ a mob and wanted to make a rule for that, I wouldn't use SPELL_AURA_APPLIED because that won't list me as the source. Why? I don't know, but that's something I had to find out myself. Whether it's because of the UI itself or the combat log's ambiguity, it wasn't in any way user-friendly.

The Spellname box isn't bad, but isn't applicable for all event types, like SWING_DAMAGE. Even if I choose SWING_DAMAGE, the spellname box isn't grayed out or disabled, and the mod even allows me to create a rule for something it could easily tell is invalid. It also creates a bit of confusion for events like SPELL_INTERRUPT and SPELL_DISPEL_FAIL. Chances are, nobody really cares what spell was used to interrupt something (like Kick!), or what spell failed to dispel something else (like Cleanse). That's what this box is for, though, and there isn't currently a way to filter by the "target" or "secondary" spell or even announce what it is (like Fusion Punch or Searing Flames).

The next box down is affiliation, which is moderately confusing as well. The options self, party, raid, friend, enemy, target, and focus are available. Target and focus are probably fine, but the rest might be a little confusing to your average user simply because there's already an Event Target field. I know that personally I'd always just list my character name as the event target and ignore the affiliation field while I was still learning because I didn't know what would happen if I also listed it as SELF affiliation, and it would occasionally announce in a way I had not intended. This is the other problem with this field, even if it's also a problem with the addon functionality, too. It doesn't differentiate between source and target affiliations, and doesn't tell you that. That's something you just have to figure out yourself. That means if I made a rule for SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS with name Hammer of Justice with affiliation SELF, it'd announce when I HoJ someone, but also when someone else HoJ's me. This puts a limit on what I can do while also being unclear to the user and certainly confusing new users, and potentially creating heavy unwanted spam (in some other situation) that would easily lead the user to drop the addon completely.

That brings up another point, though. With any addon that has spam potential, I believe it has an added requirement that it be more clear than normal addons when establishing what it does. It's much more likely to be dropped at the first sign of trouble, especially if that unintended spam happens in a raid setting before the usefulness of the addon has been accepted. My raid generally appreciates the rules I use, so they just chuckle when I make a mistake and write a rule that bombards the raid with spam until I can frantically turn it off. Not everyone will have this luxury, though.

Next is the output box, which probably should have a drop-down from a user-accessibility standpoint but doesn't to allow for custom input (player names for whispers). Most are fairly intuitive and the same as can be used from a standard /command (SAY, YELL, GUILD, RAID, PARTY, RAID_WARNING, RW) but some aren't (WARN, *TARGET, *SOURCE). I just learned recently that WARN even exists. This should almost definitely be a drop-down box with "pretty" translations rather than intimidating-looking CAPS with sometimes underscores or references to things that aren't well-known (WARN).

Display text isn't bad, but it doesn't tell you that it'll use a standard announcement if you don't put one in yourself. You'd also have to whip out the ReadMe if you wanted to know what variables you could use in your spam (*target, *source, *spell, etc.).

Spam delay is pretty self-explanatory, and I already mentioned the problem with viewing rules already added.

The TJH UI will be a fair place to start from, but I certainly hope to have something much better.
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby Dimitry » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:37 am

I just glanced over everything, so I may have missed it if you said this, but... The ability to look through the combat log and just pick an event and say "Make a rule for this" would be nice. Just a skeleton of the rule with "text goes here" would be fine.

I don't do GUI very well either, especially in LUA. If I had any free time, I'd offer to help. :)
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:20 am

Dimitry wrote:I just glanced over everything, so I may have missed it if you said this, but... The ability to look through the combat log and just pick an event and say "Make a rule for this" would be nice. Just a skeleton of the rule with "text goes here" would be fine.

I don't do GUI very well either, especially in LUA. If I had any free time, I'd offer to help. :)

That is a very interesting idea that I hadn't thought of. I think one of my addons currently adds an icon to the default combat log window in-game that just opens it into a selectable copy/paste window. I'd bet that's definitely doable and would help new users quite a bit. It's on the list, for sure.
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:30 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Dimitry wrote:I just glanced over everything, so I may have missed it if you said this, but... The ability to look through the combat log and just pick an event and say "Make a rule for this" would be nice. Just a skeleton of the rule with "text goes here" would be fine.

I don't do GUI very well either, especially in LUA. If I had any free time, I'd offer to help. :)

That is a very interesting idea that I hadn't thought of. I think one of my addons currently adds an icon to the default combat log window in-game that just opens it into a selectable copy/paste window. I'd bet that's definitely doable and would help new users quite a bit. It's on the list, for sure.


Tangentially, I have a quick and dirty addon that searches the combat log and prints it to the default chat frame....
http://sabin.nfshost.com/wowaddons/CombatLogSearch.zip
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby Mert » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:33 am

I have very little knowledge in terms of programming or addon writing myself but I'll happily volunteer my guild to beta test it when you get to that stage - feel free to PM me here as you get closer to the time with the kind of information you'd need to get back from my guys etc. In the meantime, best of luck, sounds like it could be awesome :)
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:20 am

Mert wrote:I have very little knowledge in terms of programming or addon writing myself but I'll happily volunteer my guild to beta test it when you get to that stage - feel free to PM me here as you get closer to the time with the kind of information you'd need to get back from my guys etc. In the meantime, best of luck, sounds like it could be awesome :)


Thanks! I appreciate the offer, and I'll probably take you up on that once it gets to that stage.

I guess it's worth posting with a status update as far as how it's coming along. The excitement of having WoW, a new programming language, and this particular idea's possibilities has really got me hooked, and I've been working on this add-on in virtually all of my free time (and a lot of time at work, too, but shh! Don't tell!) since I made this original post. Right now, it can do the following:

    Register any event and any event's parameters as rules. I specifically tested with combat log events (obviously) and MINIMAP_PING. It lets you specify its arguments as filters if you want, or use them as variables to announce something. For example, I set up one that just filters for MINIMAP_PING and announces "*sourceName pinged the map at *x, *y." The add-on knows what events return what, so it knows how to format that.

    You can also register other parameters as filters that have nothing to do with the event. Some things I have implemented are: what stance you're in, what class you are, whether or not you're resting, what the player's name is (for use in a kind of "profiles"), whether or not you're in a raid, whether or not you're in a battleground, whether or not you're in an arena and much, much, more. What this means is that you can make a rule that only triggers if you're in an arena. Or only in HEROIC Ulduar, etc. This should cut down on spam and make rules more easily filterable, which should increase framerate and efficiency.

    Its algorithm is much, much better than TJH's. TJH compares each and every combat event (tons) to each and every rule you have (can be quite a few). This add-on will be able to filter out most easily, and although currently it checks event parameters first, I am changing it to check non-event parameters first soon. What this means is that it would greatly increase efficiency by assigning tags to rules that are obvious to you and will help with filtering (like, that rules for Yogg should only trigger if you're in Yogg's room, so ignore them outside Yogg's room).

    The idea was that chat alerts aren't all it should be able to do, though, and I've made progress toward that. It does chat things just like TJH (with a few "buffs"), but also currently does timer bars, the red screen border flashing (technically called LowHealthFrame), plays sounds, and takes screenshots. This is just a start, though. In the future I'll be adding things like starting and stopping video capture for the Mac client since that will be built in (should be awesome), raid target assignment, spell casting (if out of combat), "action button" assignment (mentioned in the other thread), and much, much more.

    All this is being done while keeping distinctly in mind that I want to be absolutely sure to keep as low of a memory footprint as possible and only load as much code as is necessary. That means that if you don't have a rule that uses bars, it will not load the bar timer code and save you 250K, and likewise with some of the other cool features (like hopefully "Crazy Taxi" arrows and such). I'm also still keeping in mind that I'm hoping for this add-on to be able to update itself based on someone else in your guild or raid updating to a later version, although I haven't made direct progress toward that goal yet.

I'm still quite excited about it and will be continuing work on it. Both Ulduars (10 and 25) are clear for my guild, so tonight will probably be completely dedicated to development.
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:26 am

Some recent ideas I've come up with include:

    Updating the frame that normally shows things like Algalon's timer, who has the flag, or how many waves are remaining in BM/VC to show encounter-specific counters, like how many of Freya's add waves are left or how many Saronite gases remain (for General).

    Tacking on a "buff check" to the ready check frame that tells you what buffs you're missing based on the group's make up and possibly who is missing your buffs. This is probably beyond the scope of this particular add-on, though.

Feel free to post your own idea. Basically anything that you'd like to happen on the UI when something else happens.
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby Mert » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:17 am

Would it possible to assign different rules to trigger for different members of the raid or at least the different archetypes? I'm thinking a menu where you can tell the addon who the tanks, healers, melee and ranged are and have different rules that appear for those different groups. Probably with a "global" channel for stuff that everyone needs to know or for situational things that apply to anyone, like whether or not you're standing in the fire.

As an example, I'm thinking Kologarn - we tank-swap whenever someone gets two stacks of the debuff, so having it announce to the tanks something like "[Current Tank] has two stacks, taunt now!" without unnecessarily spamming the DPS could be nice, especially if you could add in exceptions to it... in pseudo-code, I'm thinking something like this:

Code: Select all
LET CurrentTank=HighestCurrentThreat;
LET OffTank=SecondHighestCurrentThreat;
WHILE CurrentTank_CrunchArmorStacks=2
{
IF (OffTank_CruchArmorStacks=0) WARN_TANKS "[CurrentTank] has two stacks, taunt now!", WARN_HEALERS "Tanks switching now, [OffTank] will now be on the boss";
ELSE WARN_TANKS "[OffTank]'s stacks haven't fallen off yet, hold for now", WARN_HEALERS "Tanks cannot swap yet, expect heavy damage on [CurrentTank]";
}


Obviously my code is drivel and would probably end up spamming everyone repeatedly until they actually manage to switch, but you get the gist - basically giving different warnings specific to the different groups on only the things that group might need to know.

Expanding on that, possibly even tying two players together, such as if a Chopper Driver was assigned to pick up a specific person when they get shot off Flame Leviathan?

Of course it's not essential by any stretch of the imagination but I get the impression you're doing this as much to write the most comprehensive boss warning / announcement mod as anything so figured I'd suggest it all the same :)
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:16 am

Mert wrote:Would it possible to assign different rules to trigger for different members of the raid or at least the different archetypes? I'm thinking a menu where you can tell the addon who the tanks, healers, melee and ranged are and have different rules that appear for those different groups. Probably with a "global" channel for stuff that everyone needs to know or for situational things that apply to anyone, like whether or not you're standing in the fire.

As an example, I'm thinking Kologarn - we tank-swap whenever someone gets two stacks of the debuff, so having it announce to the tanks something like "[Current Tank] has two stacks, taunt now!" without unnecessarily spamming the DPS could be nice, especially if you could add in exceptions to it... in pseudo-code, I'm thinking something like this:

Obviously my code is drivel and would probably end up spamming everyone repeatedly until they actually manage to switch, but you get the gist - basically giving different warnings specific to the different groups on only the things that group might need to know.

Expanding on that, possibly even tying two players together, such as if a Chopper Driver was assigned to pick up a specific person when they get shot off Flame Leviathan?

Of course it's not essential by any stretch of the imagination but I get the impression you're doing this as much to write the most comprehensive boss warning / announcement mod as anything so figured I'd suggest it all the same :)

I've been thinking through something like this, and I'm left with somewhat of a problem. I plan to be able to calculate the normal raid roles based on health, attack power, talents, or whatever, so I should be able to break them down to Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Tanks, Healers. That will be a big help with raid assignment.

Making the jump to encounter-specific roles is where I'm still stuck, though. That'll be a little tougher to figure out since they differ so much from encounter to encounter. I'd hate to force a raid leader to assign roles to people before encounters, but I also know how crazy important these roles are. I may be able to get around some (like knowing who clicked on a portal for Yogg, or who's actually in a Chopper or Siege Engine), but it's going to take some MacGyvering. Or maybe not. I've already been considering things like "temporary rules" or rules that can disable or enable other rules. I might just have the Chopper rules enabled when you enter a Chopper and disabled when you leave. Likewise for Yogg, I'd have the "up top" rules enabled for everyone unless you click on a portal, and then they're disabled (and the illusion's rules enabled) until you click on the exit portal (or Induce Madness finishes).

It's one of my hurdles, though, because I think it would be too much to ask someone to assign people roles. If it were just that, maybe, but then that means if X disconnects or Y replaces Z, that means either your raid leader has to reconfigure groups or your warnings are off, spammy, or otherwise incorrect. If it can't be solved by the temporary enabling/disabling of certain rules by other rules, unless someone else has a good idea, it's probably not going to happen.
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby Mert » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:18 am

I'm not entirely sure how it works, but ZOMGBuffs does some kind of check of the members of your raid and uses their stats to predict what role it thinks they are and assigns them accordingly. Occasionally it still gets it wrong, but its strength is that you can assign them to Healer, Ranged DPS or whatever if needed and then it will remember who is what until you change it so rather than having to reconfigure for each fight it will just default to what it thinks is the case unless told otherwise.

I see what you mean about when people have non-standard roles (like portal team on Yogg) to fulfil however - maybe that could work as you suggest if there's something they activaly do or some event they trigger that's different but I guess it'd be a lot of work to have an assignment for "kiter" on Gluth or whatever.

I see what you mean - assigning to generic tank, healer, etc groups shouldn't be that hard in itself and won't take a raid leader too long to set up but drilling down any further might prove to be enough work that it ends up going unused on account of being unwieldy. Best of luck anyway if you do find a solution :)
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:45 am

Mert wrote:I'm not entirely sure how it works, but ZOMGBuffs does some kind of check of the members of your raid and uses their stats to predict what role it thinks they are and assigns them accordingly. Occasionally it still gets it wrong, but its strength is that you can assign them to Healer, Ranged DPS or whatever if needed and then it will remember who is what until you change it so rather than having to reconfigure for each fight it will just default to what it thinks is the case unless told otherwise.

I see what you mean about when people have non-standard roles (like portal team on Yogg) to fulfil however - maybe that could work as you suggest if there's something they activaly do or some event they trigger that's different but I guess it'd be a lot of work to have an assignment for "kiter" on Gluth or whatever.

I see what you mean - assigning to generic tank, healer, etc groups shouldn't be that hard in itself and won't take a raid leader too long to set up but drilling down any further might prove to be enough work that it ends up going unused on account of being unwieldy. Best of luck anyway if you do find a solution :)

Well, I suppose by definition, if you're fulfilling a different role you'll be doing something differently (different vehicle, clicking portal, tanking adds instead of boss, etc.). I'll see how far I can take that. You'll be able to define what happens after the rules in your own Lua code if you'd like, so the possibilities are essentially limited by what you could do with an add-on anyway. For example, the current way I have "rules" implemented are (with spaces and line breaks for readability):

Rule:
Event ;
paremeter1, parameter2, parameter3, parameter4 ;
extraFilter1, extraFilter2, extraFilter3 ;
reaction1, reaction2, reaction3

The red is the event. For TJH, that's always COMBAT_LOG_EVENT_UNFILTERED. The blue is the event-based parameters, which is also what TJH does, except other events have parameters, too. The green are extra filters, something I thought that was heavily useful but absent in TJH. They're basically anything that would determine if the event should trigger that aren't directly related to the event. Three are shown here, but you should be able to make infinitely many. Reactions are fairly self-explanatory. What to do after the rule has been triggered, and they will execute in order. This is going to take a little MacGyvering code-wise, but should be quite reasonable. See my *note at the bottom.

Ideally the GUI will make it so you never have to know this, but here's how a typical rule might look:

Rule:
COMBAT_LOG_EVENT_UNFILTERED ;
, SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS, , Moduspwnens, , , , , 498, Divine Protection ;
heroic, combat, notresting ;
chat:YELL("Shield Wall up!"), [ ShieldWallCounter = ShieldWallCounter + 1 ], chat:SELF("DP used "..ShieldWallCounter.." times.")

You'd be able to have any number of reactions though, too. Heck, throw in:
startTimer("Modus: Divine Protection", 12)

Basically, those extra filters (examples used above are heroic, combat, notresting) could also be written in code. I just already told the add-on how to check if you're in combat, on heroic difficulty, and whether or not you're resting. The extra filter "combat" could have been rewritten as "[ InCombatLockdown() == 1 ]" and it would do exactly the same thing, because that's what I've told it to do when it sees the filter "combat".

This leads me to the realization that I could define those role-based groups myself. If the user can define his own if he doesn't like mine, then there's really no sense in not making it easier for the vast majority of the people that would agree with me. Just like I've made a "combat" filter, I could just make a "Yogg's Portal Group" filter because even though it would only be useful in the very niche situation of a single encounter, it wouldn't have to be used (or even necessarily shown to the user) when he's creating rules for the other 99.9% of the game. It would just be a string of code that doesn't get used at the worst, but be automated role selection for something that would otherwise be very complicated to figure out at best.

* This is slightly more complicated than I thought it would be because while doing them in order is easy, some actions (like interface option changes) are instant, while others (like sending a chat message) are not. I want to be sure the user doesn't have to understand that complexity, so I'm hoping to make it automatically work around it. So far I see no reason why my implementation idea wouldn't work.
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Re: New Personal Project? Addon Idea

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:24 am

That reminds me... I need to think of a replacement for DBM's reply/status whisper backs to people who aren't in the raid ("<DBM> Modus is fighting Yogg-Saron (50%, 25/25 alive). Whisper with "status" for an update."). I think I'll make that a different add-on. I have some good ideas for making one that's a little, well, better. Well, now that I think about it, though, some of its methods and data would be duplicated if you have both my add-on project and a separate reply add-on. That may be better just as an "extra module."

Basically, it's fairly easy on most fights to tell if it's on hard mode (and what variation of hard mode for Sarth, Freya, FL), so I'd like it to also reply with that. Well, to keep all users happy, it'd would just say the boss' name for normal mode (like, "Thorim") and include details for hard mode if it's hard mode (like, "Thorim and Sif" or "Freya +2K"). Heck, with the new "difficulties", determining boss difficulty (hard or normal) will be based on your dungeon setting in the Coliseum. There's already a Blizzard function to determine whether a mob is a "boss" or not, so I'd have a default template for unknown bosses that would reply like the DBM one does. I think there's easily some room for improvement for the whisper-back, though.

For example, how about for Iron Council, it'd whisper the health % of all three bosses? Or for Hodir, it'd tell you how much time is left for the achievement? Or for Freya, how many waves remain? Or for General, the health of the Animus (or time until it, if necessary). Or what phase you're in for Yogg? Or what phase you're on for Mimiron? /shrug. Nothing too terribly complicated. Just include a few extra snippets of code for each boss to determine these things and use them. Keeping a running list of all targets you're in combat with (as well as probably their health and maybe specific buffs) seems like it'd be best to not do more than once, though, so it'd probably be best if I had both add-ons use the same list and updater.
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