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Is my spec really that bad???

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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby Noradin » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:55 am

Divinity mostly matters with hots (-> druids) as other healers can hardly finetune their heals to take advantage of your personal 5% more healing taken. They will choose their heals depending on your health and their general exspectations of how high their heals will be.
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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby Mert » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:22 am

Chicken wrote:As I said, I do know it's unlikely to make a difference, but it still has a larger chance to save me than conviction/crusade do. ;)


I'm being deliberately facetious but it could be argued that Conviction/Crusade will save your life when it stops Hodir breaking away and punching all your clothies squarely across the face...
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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby Chicken » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:41 am

Mert wrote:
Chicken wrote:As I said, I do know it's unlikely to make a difference, but it still has a larger chance to save me than conviction/crusade do. ;)


I'm being deliberately facetious but it could be argued that Conviction/Crusade will save your life when it stops Hodir breaking away and punching all your clothies squarely across the face...
That's certainly true, and Divinity would definitely be the first talent I'd drop if that were an issue, but the only encounter I can really say I'd have trouble keeping up with the threat of the DPS is Vezax, and I only very rarely tank him. Hodir is easier on threat simply because while your DPS certainly gets more buffs than you do, you at least get 50% extra magical damage done, which is quite a good threat boost, even counting swapping in a few pieces of Frost Resist gear.

To rephrase it, I'm not saying Divinity is good, it's just, in my own opinion, the least bad option. You can argue the same thing about the dps increase from conviction and crusade being likely to save you through making the encounter just that little bit shorter, and I suspect you'd be just as right as I am. It wouldn't even surprise me if both options are just as likely to save you.
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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby Gloven » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:27 am

Personally i would have took Guardians favour also i find myself using it alot actually, It looks also that u have speced for extra threat but does a paladin ever really need any extra threat if u use the 969 rotation?

Even if u did need extra threat why wouldnt u just stick some points in seal of the pure instead?

http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basic ... 0000000000

This is what i run with although currently specced with in an additional point in Spiritual attunement due to vezax hard on 10 being reli stupid for a paladin.
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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby Khayne » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:32 am

Dread wrote:The improvement to your Sacred Shield alone makes DG more valuable than Imp HoJ anytime you're taking damage.


Question is, which one will save your ass more often.
Mitigating that 100-200 more from SS every time it procs (once/6 secs), or being able to interrupt spells more often or simply stunning adds more often. Fights in ulduar that got adds to stun or something to interrupt: razor/ignis/XT/Iron council/Kologarn/Auriaya/Thorim/Freya/Mimiron/Vezax/Yoggy.

Whoa, it's useless on Leviathan and hodir, oh and algalon i guess (never seen him yet). (And vezax is slightly less useful as only 1 spell to interrupt for whole raid, but i've saved raids ass with HoJ on that allready too.)
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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:22 am

Khayne wrote:Question is, which one will save your ass more often.
Mitigating that 100-200 more from SS every time it procs (once/6 secs), or being able to interrupt spells more often or simply stunning adds more often. Fights in ulduar that got adds to stun or something to interrupt: razor/ignis/XT/Iron council/Kologarn/Auriaya/Thorim/Freya/Mimiron/Vezax/Yoggy.

Whoa, it's useless on Leviathan and hodir, oh and algalon i guess (never seen him yet). (And vezax is slightly less useful as only 1 spell to interrupt for whole raid, but i've saved raids ass with HoJ on that allready too.)

Fully raid-buffed, my SS absorbs about 1850, so the talent points are responsible for about 300 damage. Over a five minute fight, it will proc 50 times, absorbing 15k extra damage due to the talent. There's an argument to be made for add-tanking, since delaying one or two hits would be enough to make up that 15k. But on a normal boss, the extra SS absorb is likely to come out ahead.

Furthermore, you have to account for the fact that since HoJ is on the gcd, you can't use it to reliably interrupt anything shorter than a 2 second cast, and even those are touchy. Sitting around waiting for the boss to cast a spell so you can interrupt is not an efficient way to build threat.

Also consider that the two talent points improve Divine Sacrifice as well, which is nothing to sneeze at. Having a DS/DS rotation to cover each Tantrum on XT hard mode makes a world of difference to your raid healers, and can significantly reduce the healing requirements.
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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby Dread » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:05 pm

Khayne wrote:
Dread wrote:The improvement to your Sacred Shield alone makes DG more valuable than Imp HoJ anytime you're taking damage.


Question is, which one will save your ass more often.
Mitigating that 100-200 more from SS every time it procs (once/6 secs), or being able to interrupt spells more often or simply stunning adds more often. Fights in ulduar that got adds to stun or something to interrupt: razor/ignis/XT/Iron council/Kologarn/Auriaya/Thorim/Freya/Mimiron/Vezax/Yoggy.

Whoa, it's useless on Leviathan and hodir, oh and algalon i guess (never seen him yet). (And vezax is slightly less useful as only 1 spell to interrupt for whole raid, but i've saved raids ass with HoJ on that allready too.)


You as the tank shouldn't be the primary person (or secondary or tertiary really) responsible for interrupts. Sure you can help out here and there, but your focus should be on threat and survival and DG is the latter.

Brutally honest, but when I see a prot pally with Imp HoJ, Guardian's Favor, Divinity, or SotP, I know immediately that they are lacking experience on hard modes.
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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby Khayne » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:03 am

theckhd wrote:But on a normal boss, the extra SS absorb is likely to come out ahead.


Define "normal boss" these days. Razor, (XT if i tanked pummelers but i'm allways on boss these days), ignis, kologarn, Auriaya, Thorim, Freya, Mimiron And Yoggy all got adds that i can (and do) stun. that's over half of bosses, so i'd class adds as very, very normal thing these days. Patchy isn't normal.

And Searing Flames is 2 sec cast and if my HoJ is off cd i can pretty much allways land it. Usually a dps does interrupt before i can, but it's a safety net, especially nice as we're running very low on warriors and rogues these days. Brundir is interruptable and stunnable on 1st phase of IC, so i really do like my HoJ cd on those fights aswell (I do tank Steelbreaker most of times these days though so i guess DG SS would be more beneficial at the moment).

Fights where i'd want DG, XT (as it'd be nice for tantrum rotation, usually only got 2 people with DG), Hodir, Vezax if we had our rogues and warriors finally come back from allures of summer. Possibly IC due to what i tank most of time. Rest of fights i prefer imp HoJ, or i don't care if i got either really.
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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby Solare » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:50 am

I used to be a big IHoJ fan, myself, until I started using SS on myself. It adds up to an impressive amount of mitigation, and the biggest reason I spec'd into Divine Guardian was for the increase in duration. As tanks, we don't have a lot of spare global cool downs, and anything that makes me hit a button half as often is worth a look into.

I remember the day I learned Sacred Shield. I was confused why this priest-esque healing tool wasn't some deep Holy talent point. I looked at this ability from the other tree, and decided to tuck it away from my bars.

But then here comes Ulduar. With fights testing our limits like never before, easily since Burning Crusade. I start digging down further into what I could to make myself tougher for these hard modes.

Now I always use Sacred Shield. Even when soloing or doing heroics. It's hard to put down an ability that always mitigates damage for you for free. I especially love how it gives us a, albeit small, barrier against our biggest weakness: elemental attacks.

I also got a handly little addon that tracks it's duration for me. ^^
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/clcbpt.aspx
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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:12 am

Dread wrote:Brutally honest, but when I see a prot pally with Imp HoJ, Guardian's Favor, Divinity, or SotP, I know immediately that they are lacking experience on hard modes.


I run with Imp HoJ in my utility/farm Ulduar spec primarily because of Freya3. I tank Freya+Stormlasher for our guild, and Stormlasher being stunned through Ground Tremor saves lives. I didn't have it in my progression build for any other fight, and I don't have it in my Algalon spec. But I would suggest that if you're not specced into Imp HoJ for Freya3, you're not doing everything you can for your raid.

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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby majiben » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:19 am

Seal up SoJ
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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby Candiru » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:21 am

If you are using SoJ, broken promise is a big help BTW.

Mainly because it makes the stuns more consistant, since they will be at least 2.5s apart (rather than 1.6) and increased proc % chance on your HotR button presses.
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Re: Is my spec really that bad???

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:13 pm

Majiben wrote:Seal up SoJ


I dunno about you, but we use my stun to lock down the storm lasher during ground tremor. It's cheaper on dps than a rogue doing it, and it's too critical a time for the holy paladins to stun. They, instead, use thiers to stun snaplashers in the melee meatgrinder to keep the splash damage going. Stunning Stormlasher at this time is helpful, as it prevents Lightning Lash/Ground Tremor gib combos. I don't think SoJ is quite that controllable. SoJ in addition to imp. HoJ doens't suck. But SoJ instead of Imp HoJ would require a strat change for us.

Some other people here might disagree, but I don't think I lack experience with hardmodes, and I have imp. HoJ. It may not be totally optimal, but it works for us.

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