53/18... still worth it?

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53/18... still worth it?

Postby Asterial » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:24 am

I have been 53/18 crusade spec for some months now and I have had no problem at all tanking, holding threat or basically any issues at all.

I have however over the past 2 or 3 weeks been getting an increasing number of complaints from healers (non guild ones in PUGs) that tell me I should have Divinity to help the healers and that I am specced wrong.

When 3.0.8/9 was released I took the changes to Paladin spec seriously and did a lot of research and forum searching. The 53/18 spec
suited me and at the time I was undergeared for most raids so I did have a threat issue.

I'm still not AMAZINGLY geared with ulduar gear... but I do have some good naxx25 and T7... and as a JC/BS combination my health level is good. I have taken a drop in block rating recently as I have only been able to get dodge based plate... but its still an upgrade.

The question is... do I alter my spec now that I am doing decent threat/dps (between 1600 and 1800 dps in naxx) and drop crusade in favour of Divinity?
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Asterial » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:25 am

ps..

I am a big fan of PoJ... so I would NOT like to lose that.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Gamingdevil » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:29 am

Do they actually know it's going to help or do they sometimes have difficulties keeping you up on hard hitters and hope it will help?

That extra 5 % shouldn't help much, since it will still require you to receive the same amount of heals (2-3) to be healed to full. If they insist on it, go 3/5 and drop Divine Sacrifice, don't spec out of Crusade.
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby badgermonkey » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:20 am

They're pugged healers. Tell them to go to hell :P
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Argali » Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:07 am

One of the major arguements against Divinity is that the 5% extra healing received only promotes 5% more overhealing, when you getting hit like a truck and being spammed large heals anyway.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Chicken » Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:36 am

Even speaking as someone that opted for Divinity over Conviction/Crusade, I have to say I can't imagine it making a consistent difference. The chance of 5% extra healing saving you is actually pretty small, and even if it does save you, you have to wonder if you should be thanking the talent for the save, or blaming whoever is in charge of keeping you alive for you needing that 5% extra healing.

Having said all that, if you don't need the extra threat either talent option makes about as much of a difference, that is to say, very little.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Dread » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:31 am

Your healers are bad.

Your spec is perfect. Although you may want to swap in the glyph of Divine Plea for Righteous Defense (or at least for the glyph of Judgement if you're really concerned about both taunts missing). That would add 3% more damage reduction.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Argali » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:21 am

Glyph of Divine Plea is pretty much mandatory.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Gamingdevil » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:15 am

Argali wrote:Glyph of Divine Plea is mandatory.


Fixed it for you. No tank should ever pass up on free damage reduction.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby SellassieTanks » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:31 am

I personally choose divinity based on the small and occasional chance that it DOES push you past the threshold to live through the next unavoided hit, but I would not say that It is going to make/break anything (atleast that often, b/c it has saved a wipe once or twice) It sounds like the healers want to push the blame....

On a second note, being overhealed is (Usually) more useful than OMG overthreating targets....so divinity could be viewed as more viable than crusade... And PoJ is just frickin win
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Wolvar » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:44 am

OMG over-threating targets makes you the tank of choice in many cases simply because DPS can unload with heroism from the start. (Try dropping heroism once all NPC's are free on Hodir with a warrior tank and no hunters) Let's not mention that later in the fight it means I can pour shots and drink more beer thereby enhancing my raiding experience without worrying about missing a rotation.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby SellassieTanks » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:04 am

If drinking is an enhancement to your tanking ability, then crusader is FTW... And yeah, Hodir sucks for a warrior tank, but fortunately we aren't warriors and this talent is a paladin talent...so, go stand in a light beam and tank his ass w/o crusade, don't worry give yourself a minute or two and you can still start pouring your shots...Those buffs work for tanks too
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:31 am

SellassieTanks wrote:If drinking is an enhancement to your tanking ability, then crusader is FTW...

He didn't say it enhanced his tanking ability, he said it enhances his raiding experience. Just like drinking doesn't increase my motor skills, but it makes me the life of the party! ;P

In any event, I think you're missing the point:
SellassieTanks wrote:On a second note, being overhealed is (Usually) more useful than OMG overthreating targets....so divinity could be viewed as more viable than crusade... And PoJ is just frickin win

"OMG overthreating targets" may not be very useful, but it does actually have concrete benefits you can point to:
  • Higher DPS decreases fight length
  • Larger threat lead give you more breathing room in case something happens
  • Abilities hit harder, giving you better snap aggro on adds/etc
And as you pointed out, PoJ is a very useful utility talent. Coupled with that, once 3.2 goes live the 53/18 build will also have access to Vindication, another excellent utility talent.

On the other hand, being overhealed is never useful. It doesn't generate threat or increase your EH or survivability. It has exactly 0 benefit to you as a tank.

I think what you really meant to say is that some of the time, the extra healing you receive from Divinity is useful. Unfortunately, that "some of the time" is fairly rare, since it's only when you're experiencing a drop in healing throughput that it becomes a useful talent.

The real question is whether that benefit of Divinity is worth the trade-off compared to the threat and utility you pick up deeper in Ret. And you can really only answer that on a case-by-case basis, because every player has a different guild behind them. If your healing corps is very consistent and your guild's DPS is very high, Divinity is probably a waste compared to the extra threat output. On the other hand, if you're constantly dying because your healer fell asleep, then Divinity might save you more often.

I hesitate to make broad generalizations, especially of the "hardcore vs. casual" variety, but I feel like Divinity becomes a worse talent for more progressed or "better" guilds. A high-end guild who brings top-notch healers and DPS to the table will rarely ever see a wipe averted by Divinity, simply because those guilds don't tend to let the tank go without heals for long enough that Divinity ever matters. On the other hand, guilds who are struggling through the content due to sub-par players or weaker gear levels may get more out of the talent.

Which is probably the fundamental flaw with the talent in the first place. Divinity gets worse as your healers improve their play.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby SellassieTanks » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:54 am

I agree that Divinity is less than optimal, but the DPS that comes from a Prot Palaidn w/ crusader is also less than optimal... In a "good" guild the little bit of extra dps privded from the tank should not make/break anything either Just like the divinity mentioned... It's a wash IMO, though I have to say that even if one attempt a month is saved by divinity It's worth more than crusader (to Me). i'm not in a BeImba World First guild, but we get the most out of our 2-3nights a week, and we have some of the server's best DPS, and I RARELY have Threat issues....and Luckily for us, other classes have the ability to help tanks w/ their tps lead, leaving me the ability to focus on my most important role...surviving.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Dread » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:35 pm

SellassieTanks wrote:I agree that Divinity is less than optimal, but the DPS that comes from a Prot Palaidn w/ crusader is also less than optimal... In a "good" guild the little bit of extra dps privded from the tank should not make/break anything either Just like the divinity mentioned... It's a wash IMO, though I have to say that even if one attempt a month is saved by divinity It's worth more than crusader (to Me). i'm not in a BeImba World First guild, but we get the most out of our 2-3nights a week, and we have some of the server's best DPS, and I RARELY have Threat issues....and Luckily for us, other classes have the ability to help tanks w/ their tps lead, leaving me the ability to focus on my most important role...surviving.


Guilds doing the hard mode dps check-type fights usually have DPSers that can push even a good tank's threat at times. The basic fact is that DPS threat scales better than tank threat throughout an expansion. It's happened at every raiding level in WoW thus far. The extra DPS/TPS is for them, not for your own personal damage input (although it is a nice bonus). Like Theck said, a 53/18 build also provides a wide range of utility talents, particularly in 3.2 where you'd be able to pick up both Vindication and PoJ which provide that survival that you're interested in.
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